Recent Comments on Ideahttp://www.ideastorm.com/services/xml/_idea_details?name=087700000000B0QAAU&community=09a3000000007Tl&ideaTitleLink=%2FideaView2013-05-25T19:40:48.980Zcrmccreary commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerscrmccrearyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N5SpAAKTrying to get back on topic, with regards to the somewhat artificial segmentation of the distros available through Dell, I agree with the original post. For our desktops and laptops, we use Ubuntu unless someone demands another distro (SUSE is usually the second choice). Unfortunately, we have to go through the "Home, home office" sales channel to purchase Ubuntu laptops.
It's not too big of an issue except that there is a distinct difference in the level of service provided and the number of models offered.
I write this post on my brand new XPS M1330 with Ubuntu 7.10. Nice job! Everything works great out-of-the-box. Up until this purchase, we have been buying all but our Windows machines (we have legacy code requiring Windows) from other vendors because of their expertise in this space. Since all other vendors will deliver Linux-compatible hardware,
I went with Dell for a purely non-business reason - the ability to play dvd's out of the box without resorting to all of the machinations one would have to go through if one - hypothetically speaking - were to install such software as libdvdcss to enable the playing of said dvds.
As an aside, winoffice, there are many reasons, pro and con, to run any OS. I personally prefer Linux, and in particular, Ubuntu, for my desktop experience, both in the office and in the home. Perhaps it is because Ubuntu has made the daily, continuus, interaction with my computers more fun than it had become with Windows. I'm pretty "geeky". My company is very "geeky". We solve our "geeky" customers problems with very sophisticated, "geeky", solutions. Most of these solutions are developed and deployed on Linux. Some are developed and deployed on Windows. We have found that our applications run faster and more reliably on Linux and our cost of maintaining our compute infrastructure is significantly less than on Windows, your mileage may vary.lugo02 commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerslugo02https://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N580AAC@mdburkey, Now that i've re-read your post I get what you are saying but I don't see how that is a negative for exchange/outlook. Outlook synchronizes with Exchange and you can read your e-mail/calender/tasks/Notes/attachments etc... offline from the .ost file unless the organization configured your e-mail such that it does not allow you to read anything unless connected to the excange server.. offline. With POP your calender and e-mail are all offlline but not necessarily online and with web based e-mail you won't have access to your e-mail/calender either without the same internet connection that you'll need for Outlook web access. So I don't really understand your argument in this caseaikiwolfie commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersaikiwolfiehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N57sAAC@lugo02 Actually they're all still on Lotus Notes.mdburkey commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersmdburkeyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N57fAAC@lugo02: Neither Outlook Web Access nor Blackberry's solve the problems I mentioned -- at least not adequately. Outlook Web Access works but is not a natively hosted e-mail solution on non-windows platforms and means you HAVE to be connected to the web and logged in to look up past e-mails. Similarly, if you are offsite and can't connect, you are totally hosed. And, yes, Blackberry's work great for somethings -- but so do the Verizon or Sprint WLAN cards in a laptop -- unless you are in a dead area where you can't connect -- and Blackberry's generally don't work in those same areas either. There are still a lot of areas around here that don't have data service, quite a few that still don't have digital cell service, and still some areas that don't even have ANY cell service at all.
@winoffice: I personally detest Exchange -- however, this is strictly my own personal opinion and I freely admit it. If you have a large, centrally controlled IT setup that is 90% Windows based, needs collaboration, and want to tightly control corporate e-mails and access to it for security reasons, then Exchange may be a good fit for you. For most smaller/mid-size businesses or those with a lot of mixed platforms or roving users, the hassles and cost of implementing it often far outweigh any potential benefits. Most management types I have dealt with, love Exchange for the amount of control and e-mail restrictions it allows as well as the uniform UI it presents even with the web interface. Many users I talk to, especially those who live on their laptops or who are on non-Windows platforms have been decidely less enthralled with it. I also hear a noticable amount of grumbling from the IT staff that are the admins of the Exchange servers. That said, its still definitely is an improvement over Notes or Groupwise.winoffice commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerswinofficehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N57MAAS@mdburkey-
"<i>I consider Exchange Server to be an abortion -- period.</i>"
I'm sorry Mdburkey, but just because you CONSIDER it to be an "abortion" does not mean that is IS an "abortion" for others. For example, I have seen many companies that migrated to Exchange from Lotus Notes. Not one of them has called Exchange an "abortion", and quite a few of those companies that I have encountered with do fine with Exchange.lugo02 commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerslugo02https://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N57LAAS@mdbrkey, that is why there is huge market for a device called a "Blackberry" and why there is Outlook Web Access
@aikiwolfie, check back this some of those companies you worked for, i won't be surprised if at least haf of them have migrated to exchange or are in the process of doing so. There are way more jobs available online for Lotus Notes to exhange Migration that Vice Versa.
If you are a small buiness and your e-mail was provided buy your ISP or webpage host, then moving from POP/SMTP to a web based serive like Google/Yahoo makes sense, since you are not tied to that particular ISP/HOST, but for larger companies that host their own e-mail those solutions as not adequate. and I must restate that I doubt that Google uses g-mail internally.mdburkey commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersmdburkeyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N4rxAACI've worked at several companies that used Lotus Notes as well (and a few that are still using Novell Groupwise).
For collaboration and integration, Exchange is better than Notes. However, most businesses I deal with never use any of the collaboration features anyway and I DO see more and more people shifting to Google calendar and Gmail for e-mail hosting. I actually have seen several businesses shift over to Google for e-mail hosting recently.
Most of the businesses I work with have a tendency to be somewhat eclectic in their computers and locations -- with various comglomerations of Windows PC's, Mac's, Linux boxes, and even the occasional Sun Workstation thrown in. This makes for a royal pain when it comes to making Exchange work properly across all the different environments, plus from home or a hotel (sometimes over VPN, sometimes not).
Probably the biggest gripe I have from many of the people I deal with who do use Outlook/Exchange is how difficult (and slow) it is to really get Outlook to synchronize properly (when using Exchange) and force it to download copies of all personal e-mails and calendar settings to the local drive. This is especially important as a lot of them are people who go out into the field daily with laptops and don't have easy access to an internet connection while in the field -- yet they need to be able to call up their calendars and past e-mails. Several of them have gotten Verizon WLAN cards for their laptops -- but there are still a LOT of "dead zones" around here that don't have decent cellular data service availability.aikiwolfie commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersaikiwolfiehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N56FAASLOL Every company I have worked for uses Windows with Lotus Notes.lugo02 commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerslugo02https://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N560AACI would say most companies that migrate to Exchange, went that route because they were unsatisfied with Lotus notus. Frankly I do not know of any company that uses basic POP/SMTP to manage internal e-mail, my college used to, they probably still do but those system certainly does not offer the same level of integration or colarboration as exchange. I can't even imagine Yahoo and Google execs using Thunderbird or outlook express or similar e-mail client as they primary method of reading e-mail and sharing calender, mail boxes etc. Certainly they are not using g-mail or yahoo.com to check their e-mail on a daily basis while in the office.mdburkey commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersmdburkeyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N53LAAS@winoffice -
I'm not saying that Linux is the only solution -- I'm just saying that it IS a solution and that it DOES get a lot of use, contrary to your earlier statement.
IIS works and is good for using the web tools under Windows for web development. It also locks you into Microsofts model of doing things. Similarly, a lot of these applications are notoriously non-standards compliant and you end up with web sites that work properly with IE only (or that you have to do custom handling of). And, yes, to do some Apache operations, you do have to use the command line. I consider this a major PLUS rather than a negative -- the command line is typically much faster and you can also configure things a lot more explicitly. Personally, I also find it much easier to integrate a Linux/Apache platform to customized applications and scripts than I do IIS.
I consider Exchange Server to be an abortion -- period. Once you get your e-mail onto the Exchange setup, you are basically locked into it imperpetuity unless you completely flush everything and start over from scratch. It is also pretty much forces you to use Outlook (or at least the Outlook "lite" web client) for e-mail -- and the process syncing so that you can maintain full copies of e-mail on local machines is abysmally slow. Most of the companies I deal with that have gone the Exchange route, have ended up regretting it later on -- and in most of these cases the decision to go to Exchange in the first place was made by management and opposed by the rank & file of IT support from the beginning.
NAS = Network Attached Storage -- which is the accepted industry terminology for a networked hard drive (relatively unmanaged -- basically a big data store without the headaches of managing a domain).
For *embedded* applications, Linux beats Windows for cross platform development. I am not talking about applications that would be sold to the public except as part of another piece of hardware -- i.e. the software that runs your router (Linksys/Cisco), the software that runs your networked hard drive/NAS (WD Mybook World), the software that runs in your HDTV, the software that runs various pieces of Aviation test equipment, the software that runs Medical test equipment, etc. EVERY single one of these applications are in real world use right now in numerous devices that are currently on the market -- and all are based on various flavors of embedded Linux running on various small micros. For doing cross compiling and testing, a good desktop Linux box beats the heck out of trying to do it under Windows (using Cygwin for instance).
Circuit Layout tools -- this is a subset of CAD, yes, but a very specific application for laying out electrical circuits with board level auto-routing of the layers. There are Windows tools for this, but there are also a lot of Unix derived tools that are decended from Sun and SGI workstations. Until the last few of years, Windows platforms simply didn't have the horsepower to do some of these functions. When you get to circuit simulations and chip-level integrated circuit layout and simulation, this is still often the case with full circuit verifactions still requiring many hours to complete -- even on high end equipment (which is why Sun still does sell workstations in the $50K+ range).
SourceSafe works -- but it is not the only game in town and, like all of Microsofts tools, it tends to force you down their development path and forces you to do things to their methodology. I am also familiar with Team Foundation. Personally though, CVS works quite nicely and is much more cross platform. If your ONLY goal is to write Windows applications, then the Microsoft tools are NOT a bad choice. The point I am making is that Windows is NOT the only game in town and that other tools are much more standards compliant and work across a range of platforms.
And, yes, SQLServer is used a lot. It is also still an expensive product regardless of which version ylugo02 commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerslugo02https://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N538AAC@mdburkey .. I would estimate that better than 75% of the companies that I deal with that host their own websites or e-mail do so with a Linux box"
Am I am glad that you qualify your statement with "I deal with" because almost all corporations that I've dealt with or know about use Microsoft Exchange for their internal e-mail management and I've seen many migrating from Lotus Notes to Exchange. I won't be surprise if even web companies that offers external e-mail to users, use exchange server and sharpoint internally for their own e-mail and collaboration.winoffice commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerswinofficehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N4rmAAC@mdburkey:
To your first suggestion, I actually find Internet Information Server to be better than Apache HTTP Server. Many applications and Web formats that I work with will not work with anything other than IIS. And I do not see how Apache is easier to deal with than IIS is. Whereas I can do most things in IIS using a graphical user interface, I need to use a command line to do many things in Apache (I have checked the version 2.2 documentation). And, what do you mean by "abortion" when you referred to Exchange Server?
To your second suggestion, what does "NAS" mean? You probably mean "SAN" - storage area network. And for network storage, I do not really consider the Linux or Windows debate to be serious. For network storage, one needs the network and the storage. I do not see how OS choice is relevant here.
To your third suggestion, which OS is better for software development obviously depends on what platform you want your software to run.
To your fourth suggestion, what do you mean by "circuit layout tools"? CAD programs? If so than I have seen quite a lot of CAD programs which are designed for Windows.
To your fifth suggestion, where are you getting the suggestion that CVS and Bugzilla "beat the hack out of SourceSafe"? Do you have a link to a study or something else that backs your opinion? I have used SourceSafe and it is a good version control program, although it is designed for smaller software projects. For larger software projects, Microsoft sells version control software that they call Team Foundation Server.
To your sixth suggestion, Microsoft does have a free edition of SQL Server 2005, and it is called the Express Edition. The Developer Edition costs about $50. And for Windows Server 2003 Small Business editions (probably both the Standard and the Premium version), Microsoft includes an edition of SQL Server that has more features and which is called the Workgroup Edition. And to your claim that MySQL gets used a lot, as of March 11 <a href="http://www.sdtimes.com/content/article.aspx?ArticleID=30932" target="_blank">apparently SQL Server is used by almost 75% of enterprises</a>.mdburkey commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersmdburkeyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N52iAAC@winoffice:
It all depends on the business you are in as to whether or not Linux is the best platform or makes any sense at all.
For the average businesses, Linux is NOT the best choice.
Quite frankly, there are very few situations where I would recommend Linux as the primary desktop OS for anyone (unless you were dealing with a company composed entirely of geeks!).
However, for many applications, Linux is a VERY good choice -- and I can name specific applications that it is used for on a regular basis at companies that I deal with:
1) Web servers & e-mail servers -- Apache and a good old standard POP/SMTP server are a lot more stable, easier to deal with, and standards compliant than either IIS or the abortion that goes by the name of Exchange. I would estimate that better than 75% of the companies that I deal with that host their own websites or e-mail do so with a Linux box -- even if every other box in the building is Windows based.
2) NAS boxes -- for simple network storage, Linux boxes running Samba get a lot of use.
3) Software development -- I see a lot of C development done on Linux platforms due to how easy it is to do cross compiling for deployment to other Linux based cores (ARM, etc). There are a LOT of embedded processors out there running various Linux variants (TSLinux, etc).
4) Circuit layout tools and simulations -- a lot of these packages were originally designed for use on high end Sun or SGI Unix Workstations and have migrated over to the Linux platform.
5) Bug tracking/version control -- I know a lot of groups that use CVS and Bugzilla variants (often, even when doing Windows development). Overall, for simplicity, reliability, and extensability, they beat the heck out of SourceSafe -- though without the level of integration.
6) Database servers -- MySQL gets used a LOT (often due largely to the exorbitant licensing fees MS charges for SQLServer).
In non-technical, non-web oriented firms -- Linux probably is NOT a very good fit right now.
However, most engineering/technical oriented companies have a goodly number of Linux boxes on hand -- even if the typical desktop machine deployed is still running Windows (in at least a couple of companies I deal with, the Windows desktops they have basically serve as little more than Xterms for accessing the Linux boxes in the server room).zanlok commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerszanlokhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N52GAASor, he is in the non-geek minority! :)aikiwolfie commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersaikiwolfiehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N524AACWell winoffice since Dell has been selling and supporting Linux products in enterprise class solutions for 8 years there must be more call for it than just geeks and hobbyists.winoffice commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerswinofficehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N51hAACmdburkey: yet I am not seeing MY business using Linux (for any purpose). And EVERY person who has seen me (in person that is), if he uses Linux (particularly Ubuntu), then he is a self described hobbyist. I do not know why that is so, but I made that statement (that Linux is only for geeks/hobbyists) out of my own experience.zanlok commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerszanlokhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N4I0AAKyes, that whine-office post was a bit out of line<br>(two can play...)mdburkey commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersmdburkeyhttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N50gAACwinoffice: "Linux (particularly Ubuntu) is only for hobbyists/geeks."
I'm sorry Winoffice, but you are WAY off in left field with this comment.
Linux is used by many businesses for MANY applications -- especially for software development, embedded systems, and server farms.
Ubuntu is one of the Linux distributions of choice that many software developers actually use for doing their development work.aikiwolfie commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customersaikiwolfiehttps://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N506AACNo but Dell does distribute Linux pre-installed as part of it's product range and actually contributes to bug fixes and driver development. It makes sense for Dell to advertise it's involvement in with Linux!lugo02 commented on Allow purchase of Ubuntu to Business Customerslugo02https://www.salesforce.com/00a70000004N4HnAAK@aikiwolfie, Dell doesn't make GNU/Linux, the people who make it are the one who should advertise it e.g. Novell/Red Hat etc.
If they want Dell to say "Linux inside" or "Dell recommends GNU/Linux" when they advertise Dell products then they i.e. GNU/Linux vendors needs to do what Intel and Microsoft does.. i.e. pay for the Ad. or part of the Ad. The GNU/Linux folks on here are asking Dell to be a charity for their cause.