Stop Using BTX System Boards.

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Stop Using BTX System Boards.

120 points posted to Desktops and Laptops by aikiwolfie Jan 17

The BTX form factor was supposed to solve all our problems when it came to internal PC design and layout. But it hasn't. Looking at the inside of one of Dells PCs it is clear to see huge amounts of space have been wasted. The wastage is even more apparent when we compare an XPS 720 with a Blackbird 002.

The Blackbird 002 makes excellent use of the more flexible ATX system board standard to facilitate a system layout where very little space is wasted anywhere.

Dell please bust a move and go back to using the ATX standard for system boards.

aikiwolfie Jan 17	Any particular reason behind the demotion davmcn?
aikiwolfie Jan 17	Fair enough I suppose.
mkmaster78 Jan 18	Yay ATX! :)
mdburkey Jan 18	BTX boards are just easier to work with and offer a much better thermal profile for easy cooling. Personally, I find Dell's E-series Dimensions to be MUCH better chassis than the new Inspiron/Vostros are. That said, newer machines actually don't typically need as much cooling for the CPU as they used to -- unless you are running an overclocked quad-core. Basically, the XPS720 with a Bin+x overclocked Quad core would be very difficult to keep cool with an ATX type design (or at least would be louder and less efficient).
aikiwolfie Jan 18	Really? Have you even looked at the HP Blackbird 002? Not to mention every custom build system out there is ATX and not BTX. Decent BTX system cases are like gold dust.
delltech Jan 18	True, when Itel pulled support for BTX it really hurt. I have to say, I prefer BTX for cooling, it is a much nicer design. But you are correct, ATX does not waste space, but that lack of wasted space is where heat can build up. BTX will probably go away soon enough.
aikiwolfie Jan 18	To be honest I just don't buy this thermal profile argument. In all my time of working with PCs I've never seen and ATX system go into nuclear meltdown. It's just not the massive issue Intel hyped it to be when they came out with the BTX form factor to begin with. It was all just hype.
aikiwolfie Jan 19	It's an option but the BTX standard is fairly strict as system board layout standards go. So we can't really move the CPU or the expansion slots otherwise we break the standard. Which doesn't leave a lot of room for manoeuvring. What we can do is move other peripheral devices around in side the case and reposition the entire system board. The system board it's self however must be mounted on the left hand side of the case. This allows graphics card heat sinks and fans to face upwards. On a system like the XPS 700/710/720/720 H2C I would mount the system board closer to the middle or top of the case. I would then take the PSU and hard drives and mount those in the bottom of the case. I'd then do away with media card reader and the extra drive bays leaving only the two DVD drives. I'd also go for a smaller system board. A modern graphics card takes up two expansion slots. It's plugged into one and the fan obscures the other. So really all that's needed are the two or three PCIe slots (3 card SLI setups are now available from NVIDIA).
mdburkey Jan 19	ATX systems work fine and don't go into nuclear meltdown -- but they do tend to run hotter than BTX chassis do. Which boils down to needing more advanced cooling or more/faster/bigger fans. In essence, its a lot EASIER to make an ultra-quiet BTX based system than an ultra-quiet ATX based system. I tend to aim for systems that you can't hear are turned on at all -- if I can tell a difference audibly between on and off -- it's too loud. Personally, overall I feel the Dell Precision 390 is probably one of the best platforms they have ever put out. No, it doesn't have multiple PCI-Ex16 slots for SLI, but personally that's pretty much a "who cares" anyway. I've never known anyone personally who has actually ever been willing to pay the $$$ for an SLI rig anyway (actually, most of the people I deal with are not willing to even pay for a standalone video card on most systems -- and quite frankly, for most people, even a GeForce 7300LE is overkill). In overall numbers, those who play games on PC's are in a distinct minority -- and those who play high end 3D games are in even more of a minority. That said though, BTX platforms do offer several improvements for video cards -- specifically the PCI-E cards are mounted such that the board side/fan side faces up. This means that heat can be effectively wicked away from the card by the heatsink and then rise into the area reserved for the CPU output airstream. With an ATX platform, the heat tends to get trapped against the card unless you have one of the oddly designed (albeit effective) boards that use heatpipes to transfer it to the opposite side. The BTX design IS much better thought out thermally -- but it is not really meant for small form factors and does have a lot of wasted space. The simple answer is that the BTX platform was created as an answer to a problem (the Pentium 4/Pentium-D architecture at > 3.xGhz) that no longer exists with newer CPU cores -- and with the 45nm parts coming out, it looks like the CPU will be even LESS of a cooling issue going forward. Unfortunately, video cards still tend to be heading in the opposite direction in terms of heat and power usage. Its a little off topic, but these 3-way SLI rigs are downright frightening! I'm sorry, but with max power usage well over 1KW, it is basically not really even SAFE to have anything else on the same circuit with these beasts. Typical residential circuits use 15A breakers and are really only supposed to be operated at 80% of maximum load continuous. If a PC is providing 1.2KW of regulated power output then even for an 80%+ efficiency active-PFC unit, you are looking at a line draw of about 1500VA. This means you are VERY close to tripping a breaker with just the PC and a monitor. I wouldn't even think about putting a laser printer on the same circuit. At least older houses are generally wired with 12/2 which can safely handle a 20A circuit -- but some newer ones I've seen are going with 14/2 which is all code requires for a 15A circuit. Personally, running one of these rigs on 14/2 wire for any length of time would make me very nervous!
aikiwolfie Jan 20	"Which boils down to needing more advanced cooling or more/faster/bigger fans. In essence, its a lot EASIER to make an ultra-quiet BTX based system than an ultra-quiet ATX based system." Dell aren't making ultra-quiet BTX systems. They stick what is pretty much a standard fan in their boxes. And personally I've never encountered a PC I couldn't hear. Now if you take a look at the Blackbird 002 you'll see it achieves pretty much the same efficiency with air flow.
mdburkey Jan 20	Dell does make ultra quiet BTX systems -- or at least has made them. They actually made some ultra-quiet ATX systems in the past -- though their current generation of Inspiron/Vostro boxes don't qualify. The Precision 390 platform (and it's same generation sibling -- the XPS 410) is almost totally inaudible during normal operation. I should know - I have three of them sitting here in operation at my desk right now. The only sounds I ever hear out of them during typical operation is the occasional chirp of the hard drive. The fans are large fron mounted 120mm models that run at very low RPM's unless the CPU starts really cranking it up -- which is VERY rare. About the only way I can get the fans to cycle to a truly noticable level (which is still much quieter than most PC's) is to run a Prime95 thread on both cores (or 4 threads on my one Q6600). Conversely, the new Inspiron/Vostro desktops are a standard ATX design and have gone back to having standard CPU mounted heatsinks -- unlike the BTX systems. For that matter, even the prior Dell generations used a "BTX-like" CPU shroud and aft mounted fan design -- which was basically inaudible as well (although the design was largely ATX inspired otherwise). About the only way to tell an old PowerEdge 400SC is turned on is to actually check the power LED on the front. I'm not criticizing the BlackBird design -- I haven't worked with one personally. I'm also not criticizing ATX designs in general that much. I'm just saying that it is EASIER to make a quiet unit with a BTX design and that the BTX design DOES have better thermal characteristics -- whether any specific design is better is a totally different issue. What I AM criticizing is Dell's current set of ATX designs in the Vostro/Inspiron desktops. They are noticably louder than their older designs and are much more cheaply built. They are also a lot harder to work on -- bring back tool-less quick open chassis, slide-in drive rails, etc. For the typical home user, maybe a cheapo HP/Gateway/generic like design is ok since it won't likely ever be getting opened. For a business though, quick access for IT people to do the repairs is a must. I always have Dell drop ship me the parts and either install them myself or have another IT person I trust do it. There is no way I am ever letting another Dell/QualServe "tech" touch another machine I'm responsible for -- so far, in EVERY instance they have either screwed something else up or improperly completed the repair. Yes, the Opteron series is more suited for this environment -- but overall the Opterons typically leave me underwhelmed (especially for the price and for what options are available with them). The Precision Workstations are close to perfect -- unfortunately they are also typically WAY overpriced. The older Dimension series and XPS series fit quite well and shouldn't have been replaced IMHO.
aikiwolfie Jan 20	Well I think "cheaply built" is the key phrase there. That's why they are hot and noisy. Take a look at the Blackbird in the picture above. It's a screwless design. Screwless has nothing to do with BTX. In fact I think the hard drives are also cableless like the Apple Mac Pro. But don't quote me. Now if we compare the images above the Blackbird 002 (top) and the Apple Mac Pro (bottom) both seem to make better use of the available space within the case. The XPS 700 has a huge void of unused space in front of the CPU shroud and system fan. I think it's note worthy that in that same space the Blackbird manages to fit 5 hard drives. That gives a possible 2.5TB of storage. The Blackbird then more or less matches the XPS 700 on additional drive bays and manages to squeeze in a cooling unit not just for the CPU. But also for the GPUs as well with room to spare. The XPS 720 H2C only manages to liquid cool the CPU. The Blackbird 002 simply has a more efficient layout.
mdburkey Jan 20	I'm not arguing at all that the Blackbird is a more efficient layout -- and so is the Apple Mac Pro. The XPS 720 series has never particularly impressed me either -- thought the BTX design has very little to do with it. Simply put, there are well designed ATX systems and there are poorly designed BTX systems. The old XPS Gen 4 Series design that put the power supply BELOW the unit in it's own separately cooled housing was a better design IMHO (at least that part of the design was -- the rest was still WAY too big).
aikiwolfie Jan 21	Yeah I would agree the PSU should be isolated in the bottom portion of the case. Which is exactly what the Blackbird does. It would seem then HP have learnt a few things from Dell that Dell have forgotten.
aikiwolfie Jan 21	I was checking out some shots of some Alienware systems and even they aren't as badly laid out as the XPS 700/720/720 H2C. What exactly did Dell get when they bought Alienware?

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