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110

INCLUDE a KUBUNTU INSTALL CD with each Ubuntu system sold!

110 points posted to Linux by phubert 01/15/08

KDE 4.0 is out.

It's GREAT!

Give Ubuntu purchasers the DEFAULT option of installing Kubuntu on that system or any other they might have...

INCLUDE a Kubuntu CD with each Ubuntu system sold!

phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Idea originally posted 01/11/08
Time to offer Kubuntu alongside Ubuntu! - pre-install or included CD/DVD

Alternative: include a step-by-step How-To for Linux newbies buying Dell Ubuntu systems to -convert- to Kubuntu.

OR-- include a Kubuntu CD/DVD WITH Ubuntu systems!

****

KDE 4: a New Dawn For The Linux Desktop?

With a new visual interface including new themes sounds and effects as well as a semantic file manager, speed and multimedia handling improvements, KDE 4 is a major release for the Linux desktop.

http://www.internetnews.com/dev-news/article.php/3720971
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/11/08
Many in the Linux community strongly prefer the KDE environment over Gnome.

And, now, KDE has just gotten MUCH better!

It's time for Dell to PLAN to offer the Kbuntu alternative.
winoffice
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/11/08
"Time to offer Kbuntu alongside Ubuntu!"

You mean "Kubuntu", no?

At least Kubuntu (with the K in the beginning) is much more appealing of a name than Ubuntu (without the K in the beginning) is.
jmxz
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/11/08
Oh man -- I'm torn on this one.

Yes, I like KDE better. I recently switched my desktop to KDE. It doesn't hang as much (like Gnome sometimes does when it wants to open two modal dialogs at the same time).

But I'd rather see Dell focus their resources on getting Linux on more systems; and once they've done that, getting No OS on more systems; and once they've done that, getting XP or Solaris or BSD on more systems - rather than other dialects of Linux. And once a user has Ubuntu, it's not that difficult for them to get kde instead (just run "apt-get install kde"); though yeah, that'll leave you with more cluttered menus than simply using Kubuntu.

I guess I like the idea - and like KDE a lot - but somehow don't think it should be a priority for Dell.

Now if Canonical had an IdeaStorm I'd be very eager to lobby them to change the default for Ubuntu to KDE.
jdelidc
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/12/08
i'd rather see the effort right now going into the os checklist and the blank hard drives. at least right now
anordal
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/12/08
Why offer two basically similar distros? You can apt-get install kubuntu-desktop, although it won't recreate Kubuntu perfectly.
Mandriva is also a good choice if you want KDE. It is a 3 times bigger download than *buntu, and in that sense more valuable to have preinstalled. While *buntu has a near-perfect package manager and is factory tweaked for beginners, Mandriva is a slightly more generic distro, focusing both on beginners and professional users.
winoffice
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/12/08
@anordal: "Why offer two basically similar distros? You can apt-get install kubuntu-desktop, although it won't recreate Kubuntu perfectly.
Mandriva is also a good choice if you want KDE. It is a 3 times bigger download than *buntu, and in that sense more valuable to have preinstalled. While *buntu has a near-perfect package manager and is factory tweaked for beginners, Mandriva is a slightly more generic distro, focusing both on beginners and professional users."

1) Becuase the majority of voters here would like Kubuntu alongside Ubuntu, just as the idea says.
2) You mean "distributions", don't you?
3) They might be "similar", but they are different in interface, and as noted in a previous comment, many prefer Kubuntu over Ubuntu becuase of the interface.
4) This idea is not talking about how well Linux distributions are "factory tweaked" or more generic.
5) Given the fact that Dell already offers Ubuntu, I do not think that they are about to jump over to Mandriva soon.
matt_d
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
I'd rather see work go into making 'apt-get install kubuntu-desktop' provide the needed functionality, than have _yet another flavor_ of OS to install that's 99% the same as something we're already selling, but that requires more testing and factory integration by Dell. Likewise with all the other *buntu flavors. Don't get me wrong - I'm happy they exist, and co-exist. But don't put the burden on Dell to provide each of these flavors.

One of my overall concerns is the proliferation of custom operating systems, and the expectation that each needs to run on bare metal (as opposed to virtualized). This is not a sustainable model for the industry.
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
matt_d - that sounds fine to me. If an alternative were to provide a doc WITH Ubuntu systems... a How-To... to enable Dell newbie Ubuntu customers easily move to Kbuntu, I'd have no problem with that, either!
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
And, matt_d, if you've seen my comments in other submissions, you'd know I believe 'suggestions' are places to DISCUSS and REFINE ideas, rather than simply static requests!
matt_d
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
phubert: no offense taken or meant. I agree completely these are where to have discussions.
jmxz
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
@matt_d: "I'd rather see work go into making 'apt-get install kubuntu-desktop' provide the needed functionality, "

I just tried it a few days ago. It pretty much does provide the functionality. What it doesn't do is remove all of the redundant gnome functionality leaving you with more cluttered menus than you'd otherwise have. On the other hand, it probably *shouldn't* be removing the extra stuff; since it's quite plausible you want both installed on one machine --- especially if the machine has 2 users, one who prefers gnome and one who prefers kde.

I think phubert's right that it's a documentation issue more than a functionality issue. The functionality is there - but's what's missing is the "if you want your system to look like it only had KDE, do "apt-get install kde kubuntu-desktop" followed by "'apt-get remove [large list of packages]" - however if you want both kde and gnome do this instead instructions.

@matt_d: One of my overall concerns is the proliferation of custom operating systems, and the expectation that each needs to run on bare metal (as opposed to virtualized). This is not a sustainable model for the industry.

Only the kernel & a few drivers needs to know anything about the bare metal. AFAIK, either KDE nor Gnome care if they're running on bare metal or virtualized (and if they do I'd really wonder why).
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/14/08
My point, however, Matt, is that I will revise a submission based on the discussion that ensues... which is why I also have suggested waiting to vote until after the discussion has had an opportunity to develop the thought or raise new ones...
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/15/08
While we're at it, all, would it be SO HARD for Dell to include the Kubuntu CD with the Ubuntu systems???

Here's also where a checkbox "include Kubuntu install disk" could also be used.

Is this REALLY so difficult for Dell????????
jdelidc
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/15/08
that would be awesome to put a cd in the box. i like kdesktop also. but not preinstalled. i'm like matt, would rather see the effort put somewhere else like 1) os checklist & 2) no os or maybe some better drivers
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/15/08
I don't really see much 'effort' here. Nor do I have a problem with just a CD (see my 'CD only' suggestion)... heck, I'll try anything to get these guys to THINK and RESPOND.

"Think outside the BOX"???? Hmmmm... sometimes I think their box is a COFFIN, firmly nailed SHUT! ESPECIALLY when it comes to doing anything to:

(1) increase participation here
(2) improve the site (see also #1 above (just HOW does one make a GRIM smiley??))

My latest speculation is that Dell is angling to have HP BUY THEM OUT.
phubert
01/15/08		 Merged Comment originally posted 01/15/08
DELL: you can MERGE this one with this newer one:

http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/76054
phubert
01/15/08		 I don't know who did the merge, but THAT was FAST! Kudos, Dell-person!!
matt_d
01/15/08		 you gave the link to the item that needed to be merged. Turns out I can merge ideas. :-)
jdelidc
01/15/08		 now that it's got a different title, i want to change my vote
phubert
01/16/08		 actually, it was a separate suggestion... but, for me, it satisfies the original request\

Still, it helps to prove two points:

1) titles make the difference in voting
2) we NEED the ability to CHANGE our VOTES (look for suggestions to THAT effect and VOTE for THEM!)
aikiwolfie
01/18/08		 "KDE 4: a New Dawn For The Linux Desktop?"

No. Compiz-Fusion and it's predecessors produced all the fancy effects KDE 4 brings to the table long ago. Don't get me wrong KDE is a nice solid desktop. But all it ever seems to do is rehash what's already been done by the rest of the Linux community and claim it's doing something new and exciting when it's not. Which is why it often faces criticism.

I have to say I'm with matt_d. Dell needs to focus on Ubuntu. Kubuntu is freely downloadable for those who want it.
phubert
01/22/08		 But, simply including the install CD should be a slam dunk... the real question is Why NOT do this????
aikiwolfie
01/23/08		 Because if the install CD is there in the package, even if Dell make it crystal clear it's not officially supported, people will demand support from Dell. The only way out of that is not to include it.
phubert
01/23/08		 Nonsense. They already do NOT support Ubuntu, period. Support comes FROM Ubuntu -or- the community. One disclaimer would be sufficient. Is Dell really so cautious (aka frightened)??? THAT is NO way to "reinvent" itself!
phubert
01/23/08		 I'd like to see Sun begin to compete for consumer desktops... I'm beginning to think THEY are approaching business with the right spirit.

Jonathan Schwartz impresses me, while Michael Dell seems nearly invisible.
aikiwolfie
01/23/08		 Solaris actually works really well as a desktop OS. And the weird file system Sun developed would be perfect for home media servers. It basically allows all the storage space on all your systems to be used as a single storage pool. A bit like a RAID-0 array, but across multiple machines. It also uses a 128-bit addressing space so you can basically add as much storage as you like.
phubert
01/23/08		 Is that ZFS? Or another moniker?

And...

GNU/Solaris - When the fun begins...

Sun Microsystems has purchased MySQL and released Java under the GPL. Chief executive Jonathan Schwartz has also speculated that there could be a future release of Solaris under the GPL, but what are the implications of such a move.

http://www.itpro.co.uk/features/158208/gnusolaris-when-the-fun-begins.html
aikiwolfie
01/23/08		 It could be ZFS. I'm not 100% sure though.
jmxz
01/23/08		 @phubert: "Jonathan Schwartz impresses me, while Michael Dell seems nearly invisible."

Totally agreed. I expressed similar sentiments on an earlier idea here.

@aikiwolfie: "It could be ZFS. I'm not 100% sure though."

The ZFS feature people sometimes refer to as RAID-Z doesn't span multiple machines, as far as I know. It has a couple different modes, one similar to raid-5, and one more similar to raid-6 in that you can lose 2 devices.

Lustre is the distributed filesystem Sun developed/acquired and released under the GPL.
jmxz
01/23/08		 For those who like KDE (hey that includes me), but don't want to "apt-get install kde" on ubuntu (however this worked fine for me), it might be interesting to note that KDE is going cross-platform with support for Windows and MacOSX.
phubert
01/24/08		 Yes, that IS interesting, isn't it. I wonder just what that means, though. Since you really haven't the option to replace the Windows DESKTOP, it could only mean that QT for developers will be available for Windows and Mac OS X, meaning if you develop applications under QT, they will RUN in all three environments.
aikiwolfie
01/24/08		 Replacing the Windows desktop is actually fairly easy. There have been one or two replacements kicking around for a while. The procedure is, install the new desktop, then edit the win.ini file. Look for a property like gui="explorer.exe"
phubert
01/24/08		 works similarly on Mac as well, aikiwolfie??????
aikiwolfie
01/24/08		 I really don't have any intimate knowledge of how the Mac actually works. But at a guess I'd say the Mac GUI has a similar implementation to all other UNIX like OSs. So replacing the Macs desktop shouldn't be a huge hurdle. Getting Mac and Windows software to run might be a different matter though. It really depends on how closely applications are integrated to the OS.
tekhawk
01/25/08		 KDE 4.0 is out BUT Kubuntu doesnt support it till the next release is out which isnt for a few more months
phubert
01/25/08		 Yes, I rather expected that to be true without checking... KDE 4.0, however, is drawing attention to KDE... might as well start now... My point: all the more reason to BEGIN offering this... (yes, a VERY small, point, perhaps, but including the CD is ALSO a VERY small point)
tekhawk
01/25/08		 KDE 4 is a big push to get KDE back on top as people started moving to gnome over the past year ive noticed on forums and such and this is a chance at getting Amarok on more then just linux *Cheers* but the time it would take dell to mack a disc people could install a stable kde 4 system on using ubuntu would take to much time now if they work with the ubuntu team maybe they can get a semi stable prerelease version or something but im still supporting the stable for the preinstalled systems for the fact that its not just linux users that might buy these systems
tekhawk
01/25/08		 im very excited for the beta build cant wait to try the new kubuntu that is using KDE 4
phubert
01/25/08		 Yep. I support stable. I posted this only because the KDE 4.0 release is directing far more attention TO KDE. And, what would it cost Dell to include the CD?? They should be doing this anyway!
tekhawk
01/25/08		 does the support contracts they sell cover ubuntu or are those for all the system they make that might be one issue with this just i thought ive never looked much into what system they offer support contracts for
phubert
01/25/08		 My understanding is that Dell DOES NOT support Ubuntu at all... Canonical does. That is what IdeaStormers _asked_ for: NO Dell support for anything beyond the hardware sold on the Ubuntu systems.
aikiwolfie
01/25/08		 I'm not sure but I don't think Canonical actually provides a great deal of support for the Ubuntu variants. I think there focus is thoroughly on Ubuntu. I could be wrong though and can't be bothered checking.
tekhawk
01/25/08		 if thats the case i dont think dell would offer it simply because there would be no sup[port for it and a good reason why not to include it in the box just because if someone bought the support contract then installed a OS that has no support for it they just wasted a nice bit of money
aikiwolfie
01/26/08		 Not only that but they'd be mighty peeved at Dell.

Until Dell actually get around to supporting Ubuntu properly I think people are wasting their time gunning for anything else.
matt_d
01/26/08		 There are a number of aspects to fulfilling this request that make it challenging, much as it sounds easy to do.

From the business perspective, access to Dell's direct sales channel, worldwide factory and delivery mechanisms, isn't given to just anyone who asks. There are business relationships in place for every component sold through Dell, whether or not the component is "free" to the customer. Dell has a solid business relationship with Canonical to offer Ubuntu, which is "free" to the customer. It is between Dell and Canonical whether or not to include a Kubuntu in the product offering (whether pre-installed or supported or not is another aspect of that decision), based on the costs and benefits of doing so.

It would be unwieldy if Dell offered to let anyone who wanted to include a CD the Dell goodie box, and we get tons of pushback for including the add-on software we already do. So we don't take that decision lightly at all.

CD media costs are nonzero, on the order of $1-2 per system in sufficient volume, with sleeves etc. Add to that the costs of handling such in factories worldwide, mucking with the ordering system, online system configurator, marketing materials that now need to distinguish why one would want to use the Kubuntu CD instead of the Ubuntu CD, ... In the end, non-zero material and personnel time. Which, if sales are sufficiently high for the Ubuntu product and demand was sufficiently high for an alternate, would tip the scales. This all factors into the business decision above.

Third, the ability for Dell, Canonical, or whomever to provide support for those customers who would want it, meaning worldwide reach. This is an expensive thing to set up (lots of highly trained people worldwide, with several languages etc.) so there had better be a solid business case for doing so. Sure, Kubuntu might be able to piggy-back on the setup work for the main Ubuntu product, but that would be up to Canonical at this point. This all factors into the business decision above.

We've said publicly that our Ubuntu sales have "met expectations". I had personally hoped that our sales would blow our expectations so far out of the water that expanding the offering into more countries faster, onto more platforms faster, with more options faster, would be a no-brainer business case. Instead, I have to give our forecasters credit for properly judging the true sales pace, which allows us to continue and expand sales, albeit slower than some customers would like. If we start getting significantly more sales of our current Ubuntu products, then more options can appear in the future.
aikiwolfie
01/26/08		 Hey matt good post. I think that's about the straightest answer we've ever had from Dell. Do you think that up take of Ubuntu might have been faster if Dell had gone with a product like the M1330n to begin with? Reading the post from Dell Community members it doesn't seem like the 530n was well received at all by the Linux fans.

What do you mean by pushback? Do you mean people are peeved at you for including a closed source proprietary product? Sorry I'm Scottish :op Personally I think those people are stupid. When we weren't crying out for a better speced Ubuntu system we were demanding a proper DVD playback option. Some people will never be pleased.

Of course, I'm easily pleased. Ubuntu on a tablet would make me very happy. :oD Oh and I can confirm Ubuntu runs flawlessly with the XPS 720 system board and an Intel Core 2 Quad CPU ;o)
jmxz
01/26/08		 @matt_d: 'We've said publicly that our Ubuntu sales have "met expectations". '

I can't help wondering if this is due to it still being often cheaper to get the same computer with Windows (or even more often, a better Dell Windows computer for the same price as the Dell Ubuntu computer you're selling at the time).

As of today, people still write Although the base XPS system is cheaper with Ubuntu, discounts on upgrades for the Windows systems make it very easy to build two identical configs with the Windows one being much cheaper..

On the day I bought my E1505N, the exact same windows configuration cost the exact same amount. If I had even the remotest interest in possibly using Windows one day, of course I would have bought the Windows version and my sale would have counted for Windows and against Ubuntu as well.

Until you get comparable machines with pricing that shows some savings for not buying a Windows license, it seems pretty hard to judge the sales figures.
aikiwolfie
01/27/08		 What the sales figures also don't show are the numbers of people installing Linux on Dell hardware themselves. I think if Dell is genuinely committed to Ubuntu and really wants to know the demand for a Dell/Ubuntu combo we need to see Ubuntu being offered on the more desirable models. And doing some decent market research would also help. Offering Ubuntu does have a cost for Dell. But I'm not convinced that cost is as much as a Windows PC. Unless of course Microsoft really are giving Dell some serious kickbacks.
 
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