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Raise your hand if you're tired of negative Vista articles

-30 points posted to Operating Systems by matthew2142 11/28/07

Neowin member ispamforfood (interesting nickname!) has posted an interesting question on our Back Page News forum asking "Raise your hand if you're tired of negative Vista articles".

It is true that there are many news outlets that are having quite a bit of a lark bashing Microsofts latest offering, hardly surprising based on the real-world problems that many people suffered after upgrading their Windows XP machines. In defence of Microsoft, the recommended machine to use Vista with has increased quite a bit from Windows XP where 256MB of Ram was quite enough (or 512 for optimal performance) and now the recommended is 1gig or 2 depending on who you believe. Personally, I had 1GB in my machine when I upgraded (clean installed) but I only saw an improvement after I added an extra 1GB, bringing my RAM up to 2GB.

It's probably also fair to mention that Microsoft has since released Performance & Stability updates, which do fix a lot of annoyances such as slow copy/paste (calculation time) to other partitions. Anyway I have also done a poll, so voice your opinion by voting Yay or Nay to negativity on Vista by clicking the Member Poll link

Link: Neowin Discussion in Back Page News
Link: Windows XP was also treated the same (thanks deck)

http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=603325
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=600187&hl=< PROMOTE IF YOU ARE GETTING TIRED OF THEM. DEMOTE IF YOUR NOT AND LOVE THE VISTA BASHING

cosh
11/28/07		 I enjoy them. They make me jump about with glee.
matthew2142
11/28/07		 how immature
winoffice
11/28/07		 I am so tired of the negative Vista articles that I hate them. Even if they were justified (but they are not at all), I regard them as spam because the predominant majority of such articles are just duplicates of existing articles, most of the time when both the duplicate and the original are on the same site, so saying that "the original was on a different site" is just a lie and no excuse at all.
winoffice
11/28/07		 cosh is just like jmxz, phubert and jorge and a few others - they always pollute the site with duplicate negative Vista articles and they do so because we hate this pollution of IdeaStorm with duplicate articles whose originals we already read.
phubert
11/29/07		 vista bashing can be fun... it would be MORE fun if Microsoft would just GO AWAY...
undead999
11/29/07		 I'm okay with Vista bashing after MS advertisements claiming this was the best O.S. ever.
phubert
11/29/07		 Duplicates, WO??? I've seen plenty of unique one... s'pose it takes a Windows advocate to find the duplicates???
sazar
11/29/07		 Not as tired of it as I am of "SELL UBUNTU, IT'S UBER" threads :)

I actually enjoy the threads because the overwhelming majority are started by people who have never used Vista.
matthew2142
11/29/07		 yep i agree
jervis961
11/29/07		 Wow a bash fest in progress. Everyone is entitled an opinion. I love Vista, others don't. Big deal can we move on?
jervis961
11/29/07		 cosh does have a place on line just as much as you do.
steveoc
11/29/07		 Dell put this site together to get ideas from their customers about what Dell should be doing to meet their customer's needs, requirements, and wishes.

So what exactly is your idea that you would like Dell to implement ?

Are you asking that Dell censor any opinions that you don't agree with ? I notice you are talking about not just ideastorm, but the whole blogosphere in general. Are you suggesting that Dell should extend this censorship to cover all websites ? What about printed articles as well .. are you suggesting that Dell monitor and lay pressure on the publishers of printed media as well ?

The problem is though - Vista is rubbish. There is no hiding the fact. It is because Vista is rubbish that people form these negative opinions in the first place, and then proceed to state their opinions in articles and reviews. So, unfortunately, banning all written material that is critical of Microsoft or Vista is not going to solve the root of (your) problem. Vista is expensive, it is uneccessary, it is a 1990's idea released in a 21st century world. People dont like it.

That is unfortunate for you - since it means that there is a growing army of people that DO NOT AGREE with your personal opinion .. and its just something you are going to have to learn to live with. There isn't much that Dell (the company), or Michael Dell himself can do to help you out.

At best, Dell can wrap you in cotton wool and protect you from reality by censoring articles being realistic critical of Vista .. but at the end of the day, the fact remains, there will be people that do not agree with you, simply because it is the truth - Vista is rubbish, for many well founded and well documented reasons.

Now, before you jump on the keyboard and reply with something along the lines of "Vista is not rubbish coz I said so" .. I am more than happy to enumerate a few dozen reasons why Vista is universally hated, and invite you & your mates to publically debate each reason point by point, if you feel you are up to the challenge. I will even offer to let you choose the reasons ... go ahead, fire away.
jervis961
11/29/07		 Well said steveoc
winoffice
11/29/07		 steveoc: "Are you asking that Dell censor any opinions that you don't agree with ? I notice you are talking about not just ideastorm, but the whole blogosphere in general. Are you suggesting that Dell should extend this censorship to cover all websites ? What about printed articles as well .. are you suggesting that Dell monitor and lay pressure on the publishers of printed media as well ?"

No, what I am trying to say is that IdeaStorm is NOT the place to bash Vista and thus is not the place to pollute a site with articles bashing Vista that we already read.

Vista is NOT rubbish, and is NOT expensive (it costs just as much as XP, and I do not see anyone here calling XP expensive).

I saw similar bashing posts on XP when it was released, but it improved with the service packs and now people even want Dell to keep it. You just need to wait for the service packs to be released and then Vista will repeat the history of its predecessor.

To you Vista is "rubbish" just because you said so and because that is your opinion.
steveoc
11/29/07		 Thanks for a good reply winoffice.

True, ideastorm is not a forum for Vista bashing - its a forum for ideas that Dell can use to improve it's business and it's relationship with it's customer. However, Dell is heavily promoting Vista - much to the ire of many customers. When a Vista bashing article appears on ideastorm - that is Dell's customers saying 'Hey dude - this is what we think about Vista - how do you think that makes Dell look when they recommend this steaming pile on every page of their site ?'

In fact, because of this 'Vista Bashing', Dell now offers XP again on many of it's machines.

As to comparing Vista to XP as a basis for deciding whether or not it is expensive .. lets consider the environment into which both Vista and XP were introduced.

In 2001 - XP cost hundreds at a time when machines cost thousands. The internet was expensive and clunky back in 1998, and desktop applications were indespensible whilst the net was a novelty. XP offered compelling benefits over Win 95/98 and NT/W2K in that it merged all of benefits of each line in one compelling and value for money product. In 2001, competing products from Apple / Open Source / IBM OS/2, etc .. were not even in the same ball park.

Years later, (when Vista comes out), everything has changed. Vista still costs in the hundreds of dollars at a time when new computers also cost in the hundreds (even in some cases LESS than the cost of Vista). This is quite significant. These days too, cheap broadband is everywhere .. the core needs of the average user are internet based. The internet is indespensible, whilst the desktop is becoming just a gateway to the net. Desktop only applications are not as critical as they were in 2001 .. and this trend continues. The opposition (Apple / Linux / cheap laptops and even mobile phones) have moved forward in huge ways since 2001. Vista in comparison is born out of a mindset that is stuck back in 2001, with the added advantage (?) of DRM. In 2007 all we want is a flexible operating system that conforms to standards, and keeps out of the way. Microsoft thinks that we are still the same market that they had in 2001 - they think we need more buttons, more handholding, less choice, more lock-in, less performance, the same old security problems, but more protection from ourselves.

I am not claiming that Vista is rubbish "just because I say so" .. which is why I offered to enumerate as many points as possible to explain what is wrong with Vista, and openly debate those points one by one. In comparison, the only valid reason I see for people defending Vista is that they don't like hearing opposing opinions. I never see a single technical feature or innovation in Vista that is used to praise the product - all you ever hear is "dont pick on Vista coz I dont like it" .. which sounds a little too much like "Dont Pick On Britney - Just Leave Her Alone - She Is Not Well".

So, it seems to me that Vista is just the Britney Spears edition of XP. We didnt ask for her to make a come back, but here she is - a repackaged mass of damaged goods, carrying a few more pounds around her middle and a far away look in her eyes - but still banging out the same old tunes that we used to enjoy years ago (before we realised our tastes had moved on). Its all a bit sad to watch really.
jervis961
11/29/07		 Gimme more! :)

Britney still looks better that Amy Winehouse the new kid on the block. She's skinny and fast but keeps needing rehab and gets booed off the stage by people who expect a little more polish.

Not starting anything steveoc just saying you can find negative in anything and singers aren't always the best metaphor. It can be funny as all heck though. :)
steveoc
11/29/07		 lol :) There are several editions of Vista, so I wonder which music matches which edition ?

Any suggestions ?

I spose linux (to use the music analogy) represents a huge friendly gathering of people in the forest all banging away on trance and hardhouse that they collaboratively mixed themselves :)
winoffice
11/29/07		 steveoc: "(even in some cases LESS than the cost of Vista)"

New PCs do NOT cost less than Vista when it is preinstalled (bought together with the PC). Even the most expensive edition of Vista, the Ultimate edition, costs $199 when preinstalled. The cheapest computers that I can find on the Dell Web site is $399.
badblood
11/30/07		 Vista is very tasty with garlic and butter.
steveoc
11/30/07		 But .... $199 (being the special ultra-low pre-installed price of Vista Ultimate that you quote above) is exactly the same price that you can pay for a brand new gPC .. that also comes with linux installed. Your point is ?
sazar
11/30/07		 Some people place a price on the time spent trying to get things to work under linux. As they should (and do) when things don't work under other operating systems. It just takes a heck of a lot longer for the average user to get things working under linux.

I mean while we're on the subject of making points about costs :) Might as well discuss TCO (Total Cost of Ownership) right?
phubert
11/30/07		 otoh, sazar, linux has far more essential tools (utilities) are far fewer 'wizards' that only obscure what is actually taking place.

I think my complaint is that there are far too many people using computers who take NO responsibility for their USE of them.

Do we do the same in other areas as well (like cars, for example)? Yes, likely we do.

Is it right ...or SENSIBLE? Hardly.

Is it RESPONSIBLE? No, it's bloody lazy and extremely FOOLISH.

TOO many use their computers for nonsense emails that spread viruses.

Speaking with a then UNIVAC systems programmer about the bad coding of a programmer, he replied "He should have his FINGERS broken!" Good idea...

Unreasonable? I really do NOT think so. Impossible to bring about? Sadly, yes.
I have no sympathy for those who get themselves into their own hot water. And, some are no more than a bottomless sink hole. The more you help the less you seem to progress...
ah1f
11/30/07		 Does anyone else remember when win 95, 98 , 2000, XP came out? They ALL had gowing pains. Wait for the service packs.
winoffice
11/30/07		 Yes ah1f that is precisely what I am trying to say! XP worked badly until the service packs, but after the service packs people actually want XP to stay. So wait for the service packs and Vista will repeat the history of its predecessor XP.
winoffice
11/30/07		 At all events, you said that Vista Ultimate sometime costs more than the PC, but all you can find is when Vista Ultimate costs just as much. So your saying that Vista sometime costs more than the PC is false, be the computer Dell or gPC. All you can find is when the costs of the PC and of Vista is equal. In any case, what I said ("New PCs do NOT cost less than Vista when it is preinstalled (bought together with the PC)") is true. Even you cannot find a PC costing less than $199, since you already mentioned a $199 PC instead.
sazar
11/30/07		 @ phubert, I am not following your logic amigo.

Vista is as easy as it needs to be and it can be tweaked as much as needs to be as well. I can't mess with the kernel, that's about it. Having something that covers the entire spectrum of users is not a bad thing.

And, given that some of us have jobs that require a lot of work and multi-tasking and application usage, I would prefer to have a modular design that's standardised than working with a more marginal product and spending a lot more time trying to get it to work with all the different tools I use.
cosh
12/02/07		 http://www.blimptv.net/mostpopularV1.html

(That video's meant to be funny, not everybody will see it as funny but hopefully it's not too offensive. Seemed appropriate to this thread anyway.)
jervis961
12/02/07		 I see a meltdown in winoffice's future.
winoffice
12/02/07		 My reaction to that? Everything there is a plain lie and I hate BlimpTV.
jdelidc
12/02/07		 hillarious video. most of that did happen to me
jervis961
12/03/07		 Oh cmon winoffice I like windows and laughed at that. Making you hit start to shut down is so true.
winoffice
12/03/07		 jervis961, I hate that BlimpTV video exactly because of the fact that I like Windows.
jdelidc
12/03/07		 i like windows too, just not vista
phubert
12/04/07		 Well, since most Windows users just pull the power cord to shut down, they ONLY need "Start"...
winoffice
12/18/07		 @phubert:

"vista bashing can be fun... it would be MORE fun if Microsoft would just GO AWAY..."

My apologies if this offends you but I must say that what you said there is far too savage.
winoffice
12/18/07		 @cosh:

"(That video's meant to be funny, not everybody will see it as funny but hopefully it's not too offensive. Seemed appropriate to this thread anyway.)"

My apologies if this offends you but that video is not funny to me, and it is offensive.
cosh
12/19/07		 Wow hardxcore Vista fanaticalism.
sazar
12/19/07		 @ Cosh, actually it's the other way around.

There is a hardcore group of the same handful of people who post anti-Windows or anti-Vista posts over and over and over and then regurgitate the same stuff about Linux over and over and over.

Take a look through all the threads on the subject and you'll see the same group of names pop up repeatedly. Fanaticism yes, but by the alternative (read LINUX based) operating system crowd :)
jdelidc
12/20/07		 i'm giving vista another chance. this time around it don't seem as bad (don't know why) so i might be done with vista bashing soon
jdelidc
12/22/07		 i think most of my problem was with the pc i had
winoffice
12/22/07		 Just as I thought. Vista is not so bad, it is just that one has to find a good enough PC to use it.

I agree with davmcn. He said: "...It's okay, some stuff on vista yes are annoying...but every os has it's faults."
winoffice
12/22/07		 Since so many people support such destructive behavior as Vista bashing, I suggest that Dell rename IdeaStorm "BashStorm" - or alternitavely, stop ignoring how the site is misused by such Vista bashing.

But currently, I refuse to post that as an idea...for now, it will remain a comment.
winoffice
12/22/07		 @jervis961; "Wow a bash fest in progress. Everyone is entitled an opinion. I love Vista, others don't. Big deal can we move on?"

I like Vista too. Most people on this site who do not like Vista bash it.

Speaking of Vista basher phubert, I am still awaiting a reply from him to my comment which rebukes him for an early comment to this idea.
jervis961
12/23/07		 phubert is on vacation for the holidays. I am also, but decided to check in on my cell phone.
petzymathuram
12/23/07		 it's really good on your part Jervis...;)
jdelidc
12/28/07		 vista don't suck as bad as i thought it did. they got some stuff to iron out and i would not pay as much as they charge for it, but other than that, it's usable
pattyboy
12/31/07		 It's not that Vista sucks, it just isn't an upgrade. It's XP with a few more annoyances. whoo hoo.
winoffice
Jan 1		 @pattyboy: "it just isn't an upgrade"

It is an upgrade. Have you ever used Vista by the way? I have used it and I would call it an upgrade.
winoffice
Jan 1		 @phubert:

"Well, since most Windows users just pull the power cord to shut down, they ONLY need "Start"..."

Where are you getting the idea that most Windows users pull the power cable to shut down? I do not think that so many people would act so foolishly with their computers.
pattyboy
Jan 1		 @ winoffice, yup got stuck with home premium pre-installed on a gateway quad-core.
sugarbear
Jan 1		 cosh, that`s a good video you found, I had a good laugh. My mother in law has vista home premium on a Dell Inspiron 531. No problems with it at all. She`s 80 years old and is doing beautifully with the os. I wouldn`t advise any one to get home basic.
phubert
Jan 3		 WO, I was kidding. And, I didn't respond simply because I'm out of the discussion. My problem is with Microsoft more than with their products. I was similarly opposed to IBM in its mainframe monopoly days. Is Linux a good alternative? Depends. But philosophically it is very much better than ANY proprietary product. I will continue to insist that the OS, of all things, as well as all hardware drivers, and any other 'fundamental' component (network software, etc.) should be seen as infrastructure, just as our roads, water supply, power supply, the mail, etc. For my part, all these things should _only_ be OPEN.

I object to ANY public entity using any proprietary software... they're wasting my tax dollars and putting us all at risk of being controlled by the whims and ambitions of greedy corporate executives.
jdelidc
Jan 3		 pattyboy: that was me that got stuck with vista on a gateway
winoffice
Jan 8		 @phubert - "But philosophically it is very much better than ANY proprietary product. I will continue to insist that the OS, of all things, as well as all hardware drivers, and any other 'fundamental' component (network software, etc.) should be seen as infrastructure, just as our roads, water supply, power supply, the mail, etc. For my part, all these things should _only_ be OPEN."

Whoa, why are you so against proprietary software? What is wrong with Microsoft wanting to keep their code secret?

"I object to ANY public entity using any proprietary software... they're wasting my tax dollars and putting us all at risk of being controlled by the whims and ambitions of greedy corporate executives."

This has nothing to do with greed. Microsoft is trying to make a profit. Why are you so against entities using Microsoft software? I have no problem with entities using Microsoft software. They are just trying to make a profit.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @sazar: "Not as tired of it as I am of "SELL UBUNTU, IT'S UBER" threads"

I must say that I am no less tired and annoyed of Vista bashing as you are. I am annoyed (and even angered!) by all of those Vista bashers out there.

But what annoys and angers me even more is the fact that such an amount of people have demoted this idea and that they enjoy and allow themselves to participate in such destructive behavior - namely, Vista bashing.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @phubert: "Duplicates, WO??? I've seen plenty of unique one... s'pose it takes a Windows advocate to find the duplicates???"

They are all duplicates of one another in the sense that all of those Vista bashers who write negative Vista articles are saying the same thing - that they like to participate in such destructive behavior.
phubert
Jan 8		 I don't mind Microsoft keeping their code secret, WO, and I have no intention of assailing such rights. However, I believe closed software is destructive. Do you see the difference? Open = FREEDOM and I am opposed to the slavery imposed by closed systems. Monopolies, be they in computing or elsewhere are always destructive thanks to human nature. Since computing IS ubiquitous, it is equivalent to such essential infrastructure as highways and, for the same reasons, should be OPEN.

I oppose the use of closed software in government, because as a programmer years ago I saw how openness and sharing could have saved us taxpayers likely trillions of dollars. That alone is sufficient argument for me.

The competitive model is needed because we cannot trust monoliths to humans. A cooperative and collaborative model works only in OPEN structures.

The same principles apply across different issues - one political party vs. many, one party IN CONTROL vs. a competitive balance - I'd rather have NO parties and NO elections replacing them with a form of national service lottery eliminating any possibility of concentration of control in any 'party' or group, for example.
phubert
Jan 8		 Actually, it has everything to do with greed, WO. Power lust and greed are really the same thing. Trying to control an industry is power lust. I have nothing against anyone making a profit. I have everything against them creating an environment where they can EXCLUDE ENTRY by others... and then consistently seek to DO SO. Please do not even attempt to suggest Microsoft (and IBM before them) has not done this!

Yes, the Larry Ellison's of this world would do so as well... it isn't a matter of "Microsoft", per se, they only happen to be in this position now... others may replace them later. The practice is no more right if someone else is doing it.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @phubert: "I oppose the use of closed software in government, because as a programmer years ago I saw how openness and sharing could have saved us taxpayers likely trillions of dollars."

Open source software is free as in speech and is not necessarily free as in beer. The correct name for something that is free as in beer is freeware. Freeware is on the other side free as in beer but not necessarily free as in speech. Therefore, you should have said "freeware" in that sentence, not "openness and sharing".
winoffice
Jan 8		 @phubert: "Trying to control an industry is power lust."

Yet your own previous comments on this page can prove that you yourself want Linux to take control.
sugarbear
Jan 8		 I have to agree with winoffice. Linux users want Linux to take control. Microsoft useres want Microsoft to stay in control. I agree with phubert on the government waste of our money. But the government wastes our money on other things besides software. Like $600.. toilet seats and $500 hammers for example. I personally use Microsoft and Sabayon. There are good points and bad points to each os. Oh, I forgot running Tigre also.Maybe some one should write an os that has every thing good in it.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @cosh: "I enjoy them. They make me jump about with glee."

Sorry if this offends you but I have to agree with matthew2142 and davmcn, who rebuked you for such a comment and said "how immature". That really is immature, especially from you.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @sugarbear - "Maybe some one should write an os that has every thing good in it."

I am afraid that that is impossible. No OS is perfect, and that is why there are security vulnerabilities for all of them (and yes, even Linux!). And that also is why every OS has updates, service packs etc.
winoffice
Jan 8		 @pattyboy, "yup got stuck with home premium pre-installed on a gateway quad-core."

I cannot say that I "got stuck" with Vista. I installed Vista Ultimate onto a Dell PC (a Dell PC which has only a single-core processor) and it works great.
phubert
Jan 9		 WO, "Linux" _cannot_ control. I might like it to be the predominate infrastructure, but I really haven't said that, either. I have only said no public entity should be permitted to use PROPRIETARY. I never specified any alternatives. Since Linux is OPEN, exactly how will it "control"? Certainly in NO way approaching the control by any monopolistic private entity. Now, WO, please think about this a bit. A COMPLETELY OPEN, FREE (as in freedom and (as far as the kernel is concerned) as in beer) platform is going to CONTROL you??? Just what are you thinking of???

O.K. guys, here are the keys, let yourselves out of jail. No cuffs, no monitors, no warrants.

Freedom can be frightening, huh?
sugarbear
Jan 9		 I agree with some of what you said phubert. But many Linux users want to squash Microsoft and many can be quite aggresive about Linux being the only os.
phubert
Jan 9		 Microsoft NEEDS some squashing... but perhaps not in the way you are referencing! After all, Microsoft is STILL trying to squash anything that isn't Microsoft. So, isn't it about time the Giant got trimmed a bit? Any REAL trimming would be very painful to their hugely bloated egos (Ballmer et al).
winoffice
Jan 9		 phubert, "WO, "Linux" _cannot_ control. I might like it to be the predominate infrastructure, but I really haven't said that, either. I have only said no public entity should be permitted to use PROPRIETARY. I never specified any alternatives. Since Linux is OPEN, exactly how will it "control"? Certainly in NO way approaching the control by any monopolistic private entity. Now, WO, please think about this a bit. A COMPLETELY OPEN, FREE (as in freedom and (as far as the kernel is concerned) as in beer) platform is going to CONTROL you??? Just what are you thinking of???"

I meant "control" as in control the software industry by having more market share than anyone else.

"Microsoft NEEDS some squashing... but perhaps not in the way you are referencing! After all, Microsoft is STILL trying to squash anything that isn't Microsoft."

Microsoft does NOT "need" ANY squashing. The more you squash Microsoft, the more Microsoft will squash Linux, so squashing Microsoft will only increase your complaints later. If you want Microsoft to become open-source or if you want them to stop squashing Linux, then ask them to do so, instead of squashing them here. This place is NOT the place to squash them, as this site is "IdeaStorm" and not "SquashStorm". Sorry about seeming to be so annoyed by this, but honestly I am annoyed by your squashing/bashing/etc. of Microsoft.
phubert
Jan 9		 Linux cannot have "market share". In a sense, Linux HAS NO "market" at all. No, WO, I really cannot see that you have a point here. Could Windows _programmers_ be excluded by default? Yes, that is a faint possibility. Linux is MOST unlikely to "take over" ... the Windows side would simply have to learn to play fair and adopt completely open, unowned standards. That would put them on equal footing. If .Net adopted such standards, it would continue to succeed ON ITS OWN MERITS. And, I suspect it would fare very well in the OSS development arena. When I say I would prohibit public entities from using proprietary, I would be more concerned with STANDARDS that are not completely open. File formats, data formats, protocols. Once all such are open, the code really wouldn't matter that much.
jervis961
Jan 9		 Not to fan the flames here but check out the video in this link. http://gizmodo.com/342920/holy-crap-did-bill-gates-just-say-windows-sucks
cosh
Jan 9		 Ha ha!.... Fantastic! Marketing won't let him be honest about Vista.... until the next version of Windows ships, then he can be as honest as he likes because they'll be trying to persuade people to stop buying it in favour of the next version! Oh poor Bill! But that's very funny!
winoffice
Jan 9		 @phubert: "Linux cannot have "market share". In a sense, Linux HAS NO "market" at all. No, WO, I really cannot see that you have a point here."

I do have a point, and Linux can have market share. Since it exists and is used on a portion of PCs, it does have market share.

"When I say I would prohibit public entities from using proprietary"

Since you are against entities from using proprietary software, what you said earlier ("I don't mind Microsoft keeping their code secret, WO, and I have no intention of assailing such rights") is false.
phubert
Jan 10		 Nope, it isn't false. WO. I would never attempt to create laws to force anyone to open their software or to infringe copyrights or patents, tho I don't believe copyright should extend forever and I don't believe software should be patented (not to mention overhaul _of_ our flawed patent system).

And I am only against PUBLIC (tax-funded) entities using non-free , closed STANDARDS (yes, this is a refinement/clarification to earlier statements ... I SAID "proprietary software" when I realized that the key issue is the file formats, not the code that manipulates the data, so my apology for being misleading!). No license fee should have to be paid to access or use any data/file/protocol standard, and any such standard should be open to all for modification/extension proposals via recognized, independent standards bodies. Meaning, it should have no -ownership- but belong TO the standards body!

THAT would create a level playing field for all, proprietary OR free.

Use of anything else by tax-funded entities should be a crime.
jdelidc
Jan 10		 agreed to a point. IF AND ONLY IF a manufacturer can sell the machine cheaper by selling vista with it (don't ask me how that's possible, i don't get economics), then a govornment agency should be buying the machine with vista.they can wipe it themselves and do a clean install. HOWEVER, govornment should not be paying for ms office when they can use open office for free
pattyboy
Jan 14		 Microsoft is staring down the barrel of a loaded gun here. Ubuntu is almost to the point of being manageable by a public entity IT dept. As long as the machines are all made from compatible hardware, there isn't any reason that Open source shouldn't be used. It would save us, the taxpayers, untold amounts of $$$.
phubert
Jan 15		 Vote for my (much earlier) suggestion here then!

http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/63005/Saving_billions_for_us_all__while...
jdelidc
Jan 15		 pattyboy: i agree with you. and what's even better is that ubuntu lets multiple people remote login and use the same machine simultaneously. (microsoft doesn't allow it on windows because of the license) so if you got an old machine that can't handle openoffice and firefox running at the same time, make it a dumb terminal. ginormous savings.
jorge
Jan 28		 Today I read MS will push OS 7 on its business users, although not clearly stated they're leaping over Vista from XP as most business have been holding out. OS 7 is pretty much the same but it has the added feature to automatically authorize all security dialog boxes to answer yes, so far its been a 25% performance boost! The jury was still out on the security affects of this.
phubert
Jan 29		 Given their track record, jorge, I'd suspect it's a wash...
winoffice
Jan 29		 Those of you who demoted, explain what makes you enjoy such destructive behavior.
phubert
Jan 29		 Replacing every instance of Windows with Linux would be wildly CONstructuve, WO. :-)
winoffice
Jan 29		 It would be wildly DEstructive and in no way "constructive", phubert.
phubert
Jan 29		 You have your opinions and convictions, I have mine. You really -were- already aware of this...

You _did_ see the smiley...

:-?

**

Anyway, the presumption is of a simple condition: "In an orderly way"
winoffice
Jan 29		 phubert:
Either way, bashing Vista is destructive behavior and I want you (as well as everyone else who demoted this) to explain why they enjoy it.
jorge
Jan 29		 Listing the obvious is not bashing. Is telling someone "shark in water" bashing the shark?
jdelidc
Jan 29		 there is no need for vista to run as slow as it is. my 9 year old machine has an excuse to lag with linux.... it's old. it's drastically underclocking.... it's got no fan... the hard drive is ony 3200 rpm. ..... i'm sure there's more excuses somewhere. but for vista sp1 to lag even worse on a machine that is only a year old is absolutely pathetic. and pre-sp1 is even worse.

other than the speed problems and the "confirm" thing on steroids, vista is a nice os. but i'm not gonna wait for it to do something when my 400mhz machine can do it quicker.

oh, another excuse, japan runs on 100 volts instead of 120
winoffice
Jan 29		 jorge: Obvious or not, it still is bashing Vista. And the Vista bashing articles out there are by no means "obvious" or even factual. I have used Vista and it is much better than any Vista bashing article claims.
phubert
Jan 30		 Bashing?
A comment from another site on the above:

Re: 23,000 Linux PCs forge education revolution in Philippin
Last fall, I had to replace my laptop, and one of my brothers picked up an identical machine for my sister in law. I also bought a similarly spec'd laptop for my wife, because whe was having some difficulties walking into the home office I keep off the end of the living room where the desktop and printer reside. Laptop and WiFi to the rescue.

My sister in law insisted on running hers with the supplied Vista, whereas I stuffed Ubuntu on the one I use, and a few weeks later, on the one I picked up for my wife, upon bringing it home.

Yesterday, my brother asked me to look at his wife's computer, because she can't play DVDs nor watch a lot of online videos.

I've complained about Ubuntu not being quite as stable as I like, but my God! This was really the first time I had ever looked at Vista...and after a while I told him to take it away and figure it out on his own.

I offered to install Ubuntu on it for her, but they both declined (although he was in favor of it) because she uses Windows at work, and didn't "want to have to learn something new."

I countered with the fact that my wife and her friends are almost entirely computer illiterate themselves -- and until she had to retire, used Windows exclusively -- and her friends still do at work -- but I set up Ubuntu for them at home precisely because it is an environment in which THEY DON"T HAVE TO LEARN ANYTHING NEW -- and that doesn't require so much of my time to assist them when they run into the rare problem they can't solve on their own within a few minutes.

Still, nothing doing for sister in law.

But it does point out something, I think. The 10,000 Ubuntu machines will save many times more than the $50.00 cost of discounted Windows and MS Office offered in competition with them -- because we finally have reached the tipping point where the learning curve for desktop use is far steeper with Windows than it is with GNU/Linux.

It had been a while since I had even looked at anything other than W98, W2K and a few XP installations. I'd heard the complaints about Vista, but hadn't paid much attention, other than to note the absurd hardware resource requirements.

But yesterday, I saw for myself for the very first time how truly stupid it is to select Windows over GNU/Linux...and how the advantage -- not just for geeks -- but also for the computer illiterate -- really does now swing to GNU/Linux.

I guess this is what they call a "watershed" event.
jervis961
Jan 30		 They just bought a bunch of HP laptops at work and were discussing them when I walked into the room. They had just realized they had Vista installed and didn't know if the software they wanted to install was tested with Vista yet. We discussed SP1 and they complained that they didn't know anywhere to get a notebook with XP installed anymore. I reminded them that Dell still offers it.
phubert
Jan 30		 But, here's yet another defector... sometimes we just have to decide it's time to bite the bullet... and change platforms COMPLETELY...

Living with Vista, one year on

"As of this writing, I have never installed a release version of Vista, and my Linux skills, paltry though they may be, are growing by leaps and bounds. MS has more or less lost me, and it is quickly losing the 1500 or so desktops I control for my 'day job'. With it, they have lost all the lock-ins, upgrades and attendant software..."

http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquirer/news/2008/01/30/vista-later
jervis961
Jan 30		 That is peanuts compared to the French police who announced they are switching to Ubuntu. They have 70,000 computers that they will switch over several years when they buy new computers.

http://www.todayonline.com/articles/235071.asp
phubert
Jan 30		 Yes, I just noticed that one as well! :-D

I wonder a bit at the sensitivity of the Windows fanboys... do they see the eventual handwriting on the wall, perhaps?
phubert
Jan 30		 You really -should- remember to put a junk string (I use four *'s) after your last text before a url... for some reason, entering the url gobbles your last word.
jervis961
Jan 30		 Strange, I edited my earlier comment and then could not return to the second page of comments. I posted a new comment to get back to it.
jervis961
Jan 30		 I usually put 2 spaces then hit enter twice before a URL but forgot, darn bugs.
jervis961
Jan 30		 As for the sensitivity of the MS fanboys... I am one, I use Office 2007, Vista, own XBOX 360 etc.. I used to get worked up over all the Linux articles on the site because they flood out everything else but gave up on it. I try and allow others to have their own views but will correct mistakes when needed. jmxz's posts have gotten a bit old with the same mantra over and over and could be contained to a single idea. Unfortunately that wouldn't get him the attention that he is trying to acheive for the articles.
phubert
Jan 30		 hmmmm... but you never SOUND like one! I don't call anyone a 'fanboy' unless they begin to sound unreasonable, and you certainly never have.

I use XP and really like it. I HAVE Ubuntu at work, but rarely boot into it... tho, as I've commented, OpenOffice for Linux looks REALLY GOOD, while OO for Windows is UGLY. Quite a few here do NOT want Vista... apparently, however, a number of the completely tech clueless, glossy-add addict suits, DO.
jervis961
Jan 30		 I wanted it and used store credit to buy the upgrade. It is installed on my Inpiron 6000 and has been a pretty positive experience for me. It required some relearning of where to find things and tweak options though. Oh and Dell removed all the Vista drivers for my computer from the support site which is a pain. I was able to find a driver that fixed the touchpad with some research though. In a way Vista is almost like Linux when installed on an older Dell system since I have to search for work arounds. :D
 
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