Properly warn consumers about ~3GB Max useable RAM limit with Vista 32bit

How IdeaStorm Works:

Advertising and Marketing Comments | Advertising and Marketing Ideas | Operating Systems Comments | Operating Systems Ideas

3780

Properly warn consumers about ~3GB Max useable RAM limit with Vista 32bit

3780 points posted to Advertising and Marketing, Operating Systems by benjesuit 06/18/07

Only Vista 64 bit can use 4GB of ram or higher. Vista 32bit (such as the recommended Home premium), like XP (32bit) will only report a max of ~3.1GB.

Therefore, it behoves Dell to properly warn consumers at time of configuration that they will not be using the sum total of their 4GB purchased if they choose any Vista edition that is 32bit.

Perhaps using red font parenthetical under the selection of 4GB instead of a footnote superscript.

*Vista Home premium is a 32bit operation system.

See MSFT's confirmation of this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/929605

jorge 06/18/07	Can't believe they let you buy 4 gig and you can't use it all. Like me sending a check for a $1000 but its max cash value can only be $500, lets see them let you do that. Of course its in small print.
thamlyn 06/19/07	I agree that Dell should warn customers but Vista Premium is available in both 32-bit and 64-bit versions. The bottom of you're linked to MS support article even identifies this.
benjesuit 06/19/07	I know. That's how I started the article: "only Vista 64bit..." The one Dell recommends is the 32bit version with no option on their site for the 64bit. Point is, how many people know this? Right. That's what I worry about and that's why such a fact needs to be prominently or at least properly disseminated on Dell's website at or before the time of RAM configuration.
cosh 06/19/07	What Microsoft also don't tell you is that the vast majority of programs are limited to 2 GB - and only the kernel can make unrestricted use of that 3 GB it can actually see.
benjesuit 06/19/07	Excellent point, cosh.
badblood 06/19/07	I think that's really your problem and not Dells. Caveat Emptor and all that....
polyzelf 06/19/07	Actually cosh, the kernel is not the only thing with "unrestricted" access to the full 3gb. You can allow programs (that are programmed to call for it with a special command) access to the 3gb with a modification to the boot.ini.
benjesuit 06/19/07	How magnanimous and altruistic of you, badblood. Living true to your moniker. I mean, purchasers of 4GB are only throwing away ~$250US (since they're paying for 4GB but only getting 3GB) due to information that is not readily accessible nor fully disclosed. Buyer beware and all that doesn't apply if even the fine print omits... the actual FINE PRINT.
benjesuit 06/19/07	Polyzelf, though certain graphics card's drivers won't allow use of the kernel mode RAM area (>2GB) because they need more than the 1GB kernel that the boot.ini mod (/3GB ) would give you.
badblood 06/19/07	Are Dell responsible to tell you that computer won't float? Everybody knows you can't use 4gig of whatever you call it on a 32 what's called system.
benjesuit 06/19/07	Well, Badblood, since you put it that way, I think I'm going to place this idea post into delete requests. :)~
badblood 06/19/07	It's a very popular idea. I think it has educational value. You should keep it!
superd 06/19/07	I think it would be good practice to point this out. I heard of a lady once who spent a ton of money on 4 GB of ram for XP... boy, was she mad.
sean 06/19/07	This issue isn't just for Vista Home Premium. ANY 32-bit OS can only address 4GB of memory space ( this includes various reserved locations, e.g. video card memory ). 2^32 = 4294967296 = 4G
cosh 06/19/07	I knew this idea would generate a complex technical argument, various people contradicting each other, each in absolute confidence. ^_^ @sean: that wasn't what we said - XP/Vista can only use 3 of those 4 GiB, even though being 32-bit, it should be able to use all 4,294,967,296 bytes. It is kinda absurd that you can buy a computer with that configuration when the extra memory is completely unusable.
cory_ring 06/19/07	You paid for 4GBs and they gave you 4GBs. Not too many people really need much more than 2 at this point - And those that do, would have already understood that very basic concept
benjesuit 06/19/07	Cory_ring must represent one of those no-name brand computer resellers who typically give you less than you pay for and who when you call their customer service for an RMA, charge you a 15% restocking fee for something that is their company's fault.
bennish 06/19/07	easier solution SELL FREAKIN 64BIT!!!
cosh 06/20/07	I'll be using 16-bit til the day I die so help me.
okroger104 06/20/07	Dell's response: "Ben.... this thread will be deleted for informing possible customers of this fact and NO Dell computer for you!"
sumyunggai 06/23/07	Actually, I do run a 64-bit OS on my Latitude D820--specifically, Ubuntu Feisty Fawn (v7.04), 64-bit Edition. However, I, too, see the 3.25GB DRAM limitation...yes, in 64-bit mode. And I now know why. The memory issue is indeed related to the HARDWARE. Specifically, it's due to the Intel 945 chipset used in Dell's laptops and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the operating system. Yes, the CPU is 64-bit. Yes, the operating system is 64-bit. Unfortunately, the north bridge used in the Intel 945 chipset is limited to 2^32 addressable points on the memory bus. Intel's spec sheet for the i945 chipset confirms this. So basically, Dell cheaped out and used a 64-bit CPU (the Intel Core 2 Duo) with a 32-bit north bridge and didn't bother to tell anyone. NOT COOL. You can see this when you go into the BIOS, long before the OS is booted. On my Latitude D820, the BIOS shows that two 2GB sticks (4096MB) of DRAM are installed...but the computer is only using 3327MB (3.25GB). Remember, this is BEFORE the OS is booted. Dell, you need to be more up-front with your customers about this. Don't sell such computers with 4GB DRAM when all you can use is 3GB (3.25GB on some models). I successfully challenged it with a credit-card chargeback for half the price of that second 2GB stick. But you shouldn't have put me in that position in the first place.
fire_storm 06/30/07	"Actually, I do run a 64-bit OS on my Latitude D820--specifically, Ubuntu Feisty Fawn (v7.04), 64-bit Edition. However, I, too, see the 3.25GB DRAM limitation...yes, in 64-bit mode. And I now know why. The memory issue is indeed related to the HARDWARE. Specifically, it's due to the Intel 945 chipset used in Dell's laptops and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the operating system." 3.25GB is still a lot of RAM. Sure, it's no 4GB, but still. Anyways, what you are saying is, is that if there was a different chipset, that we would be able to use all 4GB of RAM?
bennish 06/30/07	yea, i found something about that fire_storm... the microsoft page specifically explains that it's a hardware problem. of course everyone prefers to turn it into a 'micro$soft sux0rs' post
cosh 07/01/07	Of course.
benjesuit 07/01/07	In the new Inspirons, the P965 chipset is used and this problem of getting less than 4GB (3.12GB) will persist if you use 32 bit Vista. And that's according to the MS link I supplied in the original post. So it's both software (32bit OS) and hardware (older Dell systems not using the current Santa Rosa chipsets or other min. 8gb addressable 64 bit chipsets).
tom 07/01/07	sumyunggai, et al: This sounds just like the XPS700 problem all over again - Dell's lack of honesty and lack of providing what they advertised!!!! XPS700 owners are getting a free XPS720 mother board replacement for the XPS700 one, but the same lack of full 4GB memory access exists!!! There appears to be a workaround per Mirosoft's article as well as in the Dell Forum for the XPS desktops that allow the full 4GB access.
sumyunggai 07/08/07	@fire_storm: That is correct. A different chipset that wasn't hobbled by 2^32 bit access would indeed fix the problem. While I do run Ubuntu x64 on my laptop, I did check out Microsoft's article about it. According to said article, you do still need to be running a 64-bit version of the OS. As for the assertion that "3.25GB is still a lot of DRAM," well, that's easy for you to say, since it wasn't your money. See, I didn't pay for 3.25GB. I paid for 4GB...and Dell happily charged me for 4GB, not 3.25. And I thus expect to be able to use the full 4GB...not just 3.25. That's why I did that chargeback and would do it again. @tom: That workaround still requires a 64-bit version of MS Windows. The article does say this. You could try enabling PAE and see if that works, but I wouldn't guarantee it, and apparently neither does Microsoft. I don't blame 'em, either. Bottom line: Dell deceived us. NOT COOL.
1c2a3n 07/16/07	Dell sold me an XPS 1210 with OS Windows Vista Ultimate 32 bit and 4 GB of ram without warning at time of configuration that I will not be using the sum total of their 4GB. As a reimbursement for the missed information, I asked for an update to 64 bit, but it was refused me. Dell told me to by a new retail OS.
cjbreisch 07/17/07	I have this same issue on my D820 with Vista Business 64-Bit. My 4 GB RAM has shrunk to 3.25 GB. So don't think that switching to a 64-bit OS is going to magically solve your problem.
sumyunggai 07/25/07	For all of those who got cheated with this: ISSUE A CREDIT CARD CHARGEBACK FOR THE AMOUNT OF MISSING DRAM. That will get Dell's attention. I repeat: even if you're running a 64-bit OS, you will encounter this problem. Dell cheated us...and I FOUGHT BACK.
ward733 07/29/07	Ram limitations are popular in the microsoft realm and has been prevelant from dos ... ask why?? Add it to the list... I think microsoft should offer the discount to dell and in ways they probably do to make up for there short commings to dell but as end users it is averaged with the system cost... Now if u use the speed boost or ready boost option you can overcome the 3gb limitation...
ward733 07/30/07	Dell has on the new notebook line offered a 3 gb 1.5 +1.5 configuration... if intel chipsets and chips are to blame than i cant see it as a dell issue.. They have to go by intel specifications..Maybe if intel decides to change there specifications and allow a bios revision to correct this issue might be a better method.. Now does anyone know if the amd systems are also affected by the limitation? I would be curious to find out...I'm Talking at the bios level and not through os specific diagnostic...
winoffice 07/31/07	Therefore I believe that an option of 3 GB should be offered on all systems that can have more RAM than 2 GB. This way, you can keep using 32-bit versions of Vista, and at the same time, not waste money on a GB of RAM that Vista will not use.
winoffice 07/31/07	Dear dell_admin6: What is the difference between "acknowledged" and "implemented"?
benjesuit 07/31/07	We heard ya! = ack We're doing it. = imp. Yep 3GB should definitely be offered.
howlingmadhowie 07/31/07	strange this. intel has had pae (allowing 36 bit addressing for segments) since pentium I (i think). that allows the kernel to use up to 64GB of ram, as the linux kernel compiled for 32-bit intel pentium can. the processes themselves are limited to a 32 bit address space, limiting their maximum memory to 4GB. of course, file i/o and hardware are mapped to the top most x memory locations, so the addressable space is less than 4GB. if you're interested, you can see the mappings in /proc/iomem but quite why windows vista 32-bit can't support up to 64GB of ram is beyond me. there is a very tempting knee-jerk reaction to say that it's an artificial constraint built into the operating system by microsoft (it wouldn't be the first time--maximum size of FAT partitions for example). but maybe intel screwed up. i dunno. The easy way to find it out would be to configure linux to use pae and then install it on one of the 32-bit machines with 4GB or more memory and check what linux sees. but i'm sure dell already knows this. oh, btw. amd64 uses a 48bit address space, so allowing memory management of upto 256TB. the only common architecture i'm aware of which supports a 64-bit address space is sparcv9 (ultrasparc) from sun microsystems. (the G3 in my imac for example just offers a 32-bit memory space)
pauln 08/30/07	I admit the 32 bit 3GB RAM limitation has been known for a while but the consumer is completely unaware. The consumer thinks you get what you pay for but not in this case. "This vehicle comes with 400HP but the pedal only goes 3/4 of the way to the floor!" Sorry! Dell does offer the generic and loose explanation that the 32bit system has a limitation and you can refer to the Microsoft page on the issue but they should tell you How much RAM will be available in the system configurator before you order a specific computer!..they know what the reserve space will be, they really do! Also Dell Should state up front for each model that is offered with a 64 Bit install of windows whether or not the chipset (i.e. Dell M90 with intel 945PM) or some other system will limit the amount of RAM available for use with software. I am informed, I'm a techy, I bought an M90 with 4GB 64bit and I have 3.2GB to show for it. In this case "This vehicle comes with 400HP but the pedal only goes 3/4 of the way to the floor!" whether or not it is 32 or 64bit! I wonder how many owners of this system are in for a shock, my company just bought 18 of these M90's should we get a large refund? Dell be honest, be upfront, be clear, inform the consumer before hand. You must be aware of this issue!
nicopoon 08/30/07	Selling 4GB of RAM on a computer that can only use 3GB is bad business. Next thing people do is call Dell Support and ask "why is it that Vista is only seeing 3GB?".
howlingmadhowie 08/30/07	i've dug around a bit and the 4GB minus io-space limit for windows Vista (the io-space is dynamic in vista btw.) is indeed an artificial constraint built into the system. as said, linux offers the option during kernel compilation of supporting up to 64GB with variable io-space (usually set to 1GB). so all in all one more example of microsoft screwing us over.
jmxz 10/16/07	Yet IBM says Vista works best with 4GB RAM: http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/02/21/vista-works-best-with-... IBM'S David Short, who has been working with Vista for a couple of years, is convinced that the operating system works best if it has 4GB of RAM under the bonnet. Speaking to Computerworld, Short said while 2GB was the sweet spot of his XP machine, he needed double that to get Vista to its Nirvana.
jorge 10/16/07	I can see that, because even if not all of the 4gig can be accessed every bit that it can is worth its weight in gold! Then due to all the memory leaks the hope is it will allow for 1 gig of leak before the system realizes it and crashes (no need to provide the gory details, hopefully you get the gist of it without going memory space verifier on me).
delder 12/20/07	Until the BIOS/chipset/whatever support > 3.25 GB of RAM there is no way for the OS to support it. This has nothing to do with 32 bit versus 64 bit on the OS, the underlying hardware (Dell) doesn't support more memory. Selling systems with 4 GB of RAM that can't address it due to hardware limitations is outright fraud and until the problems with the underlying chipsets are resolved I won't be purchasing any new systems.
jmxz 12/20/07	@delder: Have there been BIOS's or Chipsets in the past decade that still had such limitations? It seems Intel added such support with their Pentium Pro and related chipsets in 1995 (by having 36 address lines); and at least intel chips since then had such support. 4 years later (1999) Microsoft was bragging that Windows NT 4.0 let you use 4GB of ram where Linux (according to them, though it wasn't true) could only use 2GB ... http://lwn.net/1999/features/MSResponse.php3 ... Surely that's not a problem this decade anymore, is it?
chaitanyak 12/22/07	classic example: http://www.dellcommunity.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=vista&messa...< yes that pathetic fool is me :( by the way does dell atleast support 64bit ubuntu on the inspiron 1520
chaitanyak 12/22/07	i have to agree with delder, this is for all intents and purposes "FRAUD" :(
chaitanyak 12/22/07	why are people demoting this?
howlingmadhowie 12/23/07	chaitanyak: because dellideastorm has been flooded by astroturfers.
dakkona 12/27/07	This is exacerbated when Dell sells the XPS 720 H2C with 4GB of RAM AND two 786 MB graphics cards, which results in only ~2GB of RAM to actually be addressable!
howlingmadhowie 12/28/07	this is quite fun. it really is blatent lying on the part of dell and microsoft. i've read that microsoft in the first service pack for vista will get vista to report the amount of installed ram, not the amount of addressable ram. so you'll be able to install 16GB, vista will report it as being installed, but won't be able to write to a little more than 3GB of it. and dell will have this happen without warning the customer. this is fraud, and i await a pretty huge lawsuit on this issue. it is also interesting to consider microsoft's reasoning for this. microsoft claims that they are trying to support legacy drivers from the early 90s which don't include support pae. question: why don't they install a switch in the operating system which defaults to "support pae" and the customer can switch it off if they intend to use a legacy driver from the 90s? answer: because they can get more money for server editions of windows. microsoft is also setting us up for a fall by only allowing support for 64GB of ram on the amd64 versions of vista. in 3 or 4 years, 64GB will be nothing unusual in an amd64 machine. doubtless microsoft will come out with a fix and get heralded by the media as being able to support more than 64GB, although every other operating system for amd64 has supported 256TB for the past 5 years. it's telling how much dell and others are sticking to microsoft after the unmitigated disaster that is vista.
james_bray Feb 12	I'm posting here to add another complaint here to the list, in the hope that Dell does something about this. I just purchased a Dell XPS 420 with 4GB of memory. Nowhere in the configuration process was I warned that the OS/Hardware would only be able to address 3GB of memory. Neither was I warned that I would be receiving the 32bit version of Vista that would not be able to support 4GB either. I am obviously annoyed at the fact that Dell have, IMHO, sold the machine under false pretences. However, I am much more concerned now about the longevity of the hardware Ive purchased. It doesnt take a great stretch of the imagination to realise that in a few years time 3GB isnt going to represent a vast amount of memory. However, with the hardware provided, I am essentially limited to this amount of memory for ever! I wont be using Dell again for Home purchases, and as I am also responsible for purchasing h/w for the company i work for, I am seriously considering switching to another h/w provider for Business purchases aswell. Way to go Dell....
james_bray Feb 12	Slight update on above post. Ive since installed a 64bit version of Linux and (hurrah), the total amount of available memory is reported as 4 GB. I was therefore wrong in saying that the machine wont be future proof, as installing Vista 64-bit when the Dell drivers are available will allow access to >3GB memory. However..... I still think it is very wrong of Dell to sell a machine, knowing that the operating system they have installed is not capable of using the amount of memory the customer has purchased. At the very least, the customer should be made aware their machine will not be able to use all 4GB at the time of purchase, and that this will be fixed at a later date.
jackie_c Feb 12	@james_bray: We have disclaimers at the bottom of each page. We do have this at the bottom of the page where you configure the 420.....is this what you are suggesting we advise each customer: *Systems configured with 4GB memory or more: The total amount of available memory will be less than 4GB. The amount less depends on the actual system configuration.
jorge Feb 12	How about increasing the font?
jackie_c Feb 12	@jorge: Have you taken a look? It is not small font :)
jorge Feb 12	So how about increasing it?
james_bray Feb 12	Thanks for the rapid response jackie, if I had known this forum was as responsive I wouldnt have been breathing fire at tech support today :-) However, I dont see your disclaimer on the configure page: tinyurl.com/3d8pll (couldnt link, screws the formatting) Also, I see nothing indicating that the Vista Premium is 32-bit, not 64-bit, as might be expected. Am I missing something?
jorge Feb 12	You're not missing anything james_bray, Dell is missing everything on this one, no amount of cute replies will help with that. Truly a sad state, but I guess cute replies are preferred to BIG FONT ON DISCLAIMERS! << adding the disclaimer to begin with would of helped Dell don't you think?
okroger104 Feb 12	Maybe this post should be tagged as partially implemeted and credit given for bringing awareness on teh Direct2Dell blog?
jorge Feb 12	Yea, most of my purchases start on the D2D site << oh brother... website sprawl at its worse.

Please log in to post a comment

last 100 promotions:

recently demoted by:

Status

IdeaStorm Team

Meet the Team!

How IdeaStorm Works:

Categories

Status

IdeaStorm Team