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470

PCs With Embedded Internet Capability

470 points posted to Broadband and Mobility by bogdano2 05/18/07

When my hard drive crashed my Dell was unusable for days while I awaited replacement.

I kept thinking that if only I could just browse the Internet from my machine, I wouldn't feel so trapped.

I have seen many devices with embeded Internet capability including phones; adding this baseline functionality is certainly within Dell's capabilities...

We would never accept a cell phone that occasionally did not boot; in fact all PCs could provide baseline Internet Phone (VOIP) capability and notebooks could provide baseline cell phone capability; all available without a wokring hard drive!

Benefits to all of us include:
- No media to carry EVER!
- Perpetually useful device (as opposed to the doorstop a PC becomes when you cant boot to the traditionally installed OS's).
- A hybrid device that could be used as a phone, media player, or any service that all cell phone companies already provide.
- A truly serviceable device that Dell could fix remotely without making me part of the troubleshooting process !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Also, I think I could have had better luck with my Dell technician as I went through the troubleshooting process if I had had Internet capability. After all, only my hard drive had failed, my network card, video, etc. were still functional.

I won't go into the OS re-install hell that I had to go through after the replacement drive arrived but again, with embedded Internet access, I think much could be done by Dell to improve even this aspect...

reg
05/18/07		 Opera Mobile - right in the BIOS - boot and login to the web even with no OS / no Hard Drive.

http://operawatch.com/<
Opera

Saved in a 2 GB Flash Stick mounted to the Motherboard, An option right in the SETUP screen -
Browse the Web. Additional options in Dell software updates would update the flash stick - for newer more full featured versions of Opera.
gmat
05/18/07
reg
05/18/07		 H.P. Laptops already offer playing DVDs and MP3s without booting up the Hard Drive,
DELL can out do H.P. by offering:
1. Play DVDs
2. Play MP3s (from USB flash stick or the hard drive)
3. Browse the Web - with No OS/No Hard Drive needed. PLEASE!

SPEED It's a logical progression of offering people fast access to data, without all the time wasting booting and annoying graphics of Windows.Ultra-Fast RAM disk web caching.
Why would you want to wait more than 3 seconds for ANYTHING from a Core 2 Duo DELL ?

SECURITY - The Opera Flash Stick is flagged read only by default, so that you can browse the web, and not worry about Windows Virus infecting your computer. If you hit a bad web site or get a bad web based email, you just reboot - NOTHING is saved to the Notebook. A portion of RAM is automatically used as a RAM drive for Web Caching. - Erased when you shut down your PC.

TECH SUPPORT - Your Windows keeps crashing, you call Dell, then boot up into the
Opera and visit the dell tech support site. They walk you through a fix, or DELL can remote access your windows and fix it over the internet. Since you are not Booted into the hard drive, Dell could remote mount the drive, check the windows registry, have the laptop report Error Codes back to Dell, (10101 - FAILED DRIVE - you know, codes dell could use to save time and money). etc.

This would give DELL a significant market advantage over EVERY OTHER NOTEBOOK manufacturer, and
make a better experience for Dell customers too!

The GREAT MAJORITY of problems reported to Dell are Software based problems,
not failed hardware. DELL is forced to eat the cost of supporting Microsoft error prone software,
and other third party software glitches. Embedded off line Opera browser would save Dell millions in support costs the first year every machine was sold including such easy to use tech support.
phubert
05/18/07		 I've addressed this in a number of suggestions & comments related to SERVICE... an extension of HARDWARE support.

Dell already has a server diagnostic download (ISO) that analyzes a range of servers and determines what firmware & driver updates are needed, then installs them ALL in a single pass (one reboot).

I've suggested this should be extended to laptops/desktops and go beyond its current function to include scanning the user's INTERNET SETTINGS and creating a boot CD or flash drive with a minimal Linux _and_ those settings. If they have Firefox/Thunderbird, it could include their browsing & email settings as well.

This comprehensive package would also have self-updating capabilities.

THIS would be a great 'service' package for Dell to provide customers... especially the so often helpless home users!

Value added!

Hardware diagnostic software and

http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/65367
phubert
05/18/07		 The GREAT MAJORITY of problems reported to Dell are Software based problems,
not failed hardware. DELL is forced to eat the cost of supporting Microsoft error prone software,
and other third party software glitches. Embedded off line Opera browser would save Dell millions in support costs the first year every machine was sold including such easy to use tech support.

Now, WHERE did you get this from, reg? Work for Dell, do you?
:-)
I'm not questioning the accuracy of this, though...
phubert
05/18/07		 I would think the ONLY way Dell could provide the very best overall experience for their computer users would be to move them ALL to Linux... and continue to support and encourage (that alone would 'encourage') the timely development of drivers and native software FOR Linux...

After all, what else could compete with the Mac?
reg
05/18/07		 Not much really - Macs are not cheap to buy - so purchase price can be a winning topic for Dell.

Of course Macs don't need AntiVirus software, come with multimedia software included, and don't have
the down time issues of MS Windows, and last 4 years or more, and have a higher resale value,
so - Macs are cheaper in the long run.

Only Linux can beat Macs on Value.
reg
05/18/07		 Of course, the other option is this : Dell Does Nothing,
and H.P. beats them to market with the Off Line Browser.

More sales of H.P.
Less profit for Dell.

That would not be a good thing.
phubert
05/18/07		 Only Linux can beat Macs on Value.

But, I would go farther, reg. Only Linux can beat Macs -period-.
mistern
05/18/07		 Linux live-cds solve the problem. Maybe Dell should ship one with every PC sold?
jorge
05/19/07		 Humm... assuming your hardware minus the hard drive is still functional just toss in a CD of Knoppix and you can get on-line pretty much with any hardware, very slick stuff check it out and try before you go out and make a whole new product: http://www.knoppix.org/
bogdano2
05/19/07		 To all CD/DVD/USB/Knoppix/Opera comments: these suggestion are media-based options that REQUIRE I remember to carry the CD/DVD/USB with me AND not lose them.

Even if Dell shipped them, the majority of us would not recognize their value, nor would we want the inconvenience of having to carry them around...

The point of embedding is to provide a unified experience that is ALWAYS available...
mistern
05/19/07		 Get a sticky tape. :-)
jorge
05/19/07		 Well thats a limited case failure (hard drive, not that it doesn't happen), it will only help under that situation. If anything else goes its useless (Video, Network, Input, Power).
mistern
05/19/07		 The operating system being broken is more likely.
jorge
05/19/07		 Well Dell is a hardware company not an OS company so the OS companies should fix that. (I just love hardware vs software infighting)
mistern
05/19/07		 Sure. But it often helps to have a Live CD handy to repair your system or maybe just to browse the Internet (actually, not often, because my system usually just works :D). There's an own article for that. :-)
jorge
05/19/07		 I said use Knoppix what more do you want?
mistern
05/19/07		 Misunderstood you.
bogdano2
05/20/07		 Jorge, this proposal goes far beyond hard drive failure: it addresses all OS-based no-boot issues bad MBR, bad boot.ini, grub, lilo, bad file system, bad boot configurations, etc.

Also, most consumers would be overwhelmed with Knoppix and would not understand the importance of keeping the CD/DVD/Media around until it was too late...sticky tape not withstanding ;)
phubert
05/29/07		 "Linux live-cds solve the problem. Maybe Dell should ship one with every PC sold?"

I like the flash drive alternative... faster. And, if internal, won't get lost! I'd lose the bloomin' CD under a pile of something... but then, that's me.

Even an INTERNAL USB port with a flash STICK (nice, because you COULD remove the stick if you wished... and replace it easily if it failed)
reg
05/29/07		 The point is:

Remove the Hard Drive - still play a DVD or MP3 CD from BIOS. Great Idea.

Browse the web with Embedded Opera and No Hard Drive - EXCELLENT IDEA.

Less than 3 second boot time,
log into your web based mail, your web based google tools, your everything,
or just kick back and watch your new '300' Widescreen Director's Cut Extended Edition DVD.

Windows is trash, OS is trash mostly - if you can bypass that morass of spaghetti code and nonsense,
and just use your laptop as an unbreakable information appliance, more power to ya...
aikiwolfie
08/26/07		 Or maybe just replace the dusty old magnetic disc technology with a solid state drive that isn't going to crash in the first place. Well actually anything electronic and complicated can die. I've seen CPUs bite the bullet for no apparent reason. No CPU = BIOS useless.
amp_man
09/09/07		 Please, stop spamming this into other areas, I'm seeing it all over the place!

The problem with this idea is implementation. Yes, it is possible to fit LinuxBIOS+Linux+Matchbox into flash memory, it's been done. Add onto that VGA bios, ADLO (for loading windows), a full network stack+drivers, a web browser, IDE/SATA support, and you're talking about a lot of flash memory and a tight squeeze. And that's not even including any tools. The Via VT8237R southbridge, which is the de facto southbridge for just about any Via chipset, only supports up to 16MB of LPC (BIOS) flash memory. I don't know what Intel's current limits are, but I suspect they hover around the same area. Not to mention that chips that large are nearly impossible to find.

@reg: no. You're asking for a full OS in the BIOS. That's simply not possible, due to the space requirements.
amp_man
09/09/07		 @aikiwolfie: The problem with flash-based memory is that it can only sustain a limited number of write operations, and it has a much shorter write lifespan than magnetic storage does. If you don't believe me, research it for yourself.
aikiwolfie
09/10/07		 @amp_man ... are you kidding me? What do you get in those USB sticks. Oh wait a minute that's flash memory. What does Dell use for the solid state replacement for the hard drive available on some systems. Oh wait that's flash memory!

You have my apologies for the sarcasm but what you've posted is just nonsense. Why should future PCs be restricted by current chip-set architectures? More to the point. Before the floppy drive or hard drive were invented how did a micro computer (proper term for a non-IBM PC) boot up? Oh wait it was all on the BIOS chip.

Now even when the Floppy drive became common place it was possible to fit an entire OS into 16MB. The Amiga OS used to fit onto a 1.44MB floppy disk. And it had a GUI, network support and could easily access a hard drive. Purely because Windows with IE can't fit into 16MB of memory doesn't mean it can't be done. How does something like a mobile phone or a black berry boot it's OS?

Take a look at this PC. Quite impressive.
http://www.usb-core.co.uk/25-06-2007-calao-fits-linux-pc-on-usb-key.html
http://www.slashgear.com/calao-announces-linux-pc-thats-the-size-of-a-usb-key...
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6730529835.html
amp_man
09/10/07		 @aikiwolfe: okay, I may have been wrong about the flash storage life thing. I did some research myself, and it seems that lifespans have improved since I last looked into this. I don't remember when it was exactly, but I'd just spent a little over $100 on a 128MB USB drive, and was wondering if I could use it to boot Windows 98. Unfortunately my new laptop didn't have the ability to boot off USB.

First off, there's a difference between the flash memory of your system BIOS and the flash memory in your USB stick. The BIOS uses NOR flash, which is much more expensive and not available in nearly as large of sizes as the NAND flash used in USB and "hard drives". If you were trying to suggest just shoving some of that on the motherboard and using it as BIOS memory, well, sorry, doesn't work that way. You could build NAND flash onto the motherboard along with the normal bios and store an OS on that, but it would drive up the cost of the board. I know some (many) embedded boards already do this, I wonder if any desktop boards have something similar.

Also, I made a typo, I meant to say the limit on a Via southbridge is 16Mb, as in Megabits, ie 2MegaBytes. Sorry for any confusion.

As far as tiny BIOS based OSs, yes, that's true, they did/do exist. But what do all Macs, your Blackberry, a handheld GPS, my cellphone, a car stereo, and a digital camera ALL have in common? Their hardware and (for the most part) software never changes! The BIOS-based OS can be designed to run strictly on the given hardware, because no other hardware will ever be introduced. You don't have to worry about what video card might be installed where, what CPU is installed, how much ram there might be, which NIC might actually be connected to the network, how to run the 56k modem to dial up, heck you even know what filesystem the hard drive has on it, if there even is one! Drivers can be written directly into the kernel, without the need to worry about interoperability, thus saving time and space.

Getting back to the original idea, a MUCH better and more cost effective way of doing what bogdano2 wants would be a PXE boot server, which any modern motherboard with a built-in NIC can boot from directly from the BIOS. That, in turn, contains a linux-based rescue system that the computer boots from. You could even make such a server with any small embedded board and flash memory, and put it in a package small enough to fit in your pocket (albiet with a power brick). LinuxBIOS could power the server, and it could be designed so that it boots as soon as power is applied, and lights up a status light when it's done booting and is ready to serve, about 10 seconds later. That combined with a CAT5 crossover cable would make a very handy device for on-site troubleshooting of computers that won't boot off the hard drive.
aikiwolfie
09/11/07		 @amp_man ... Check out the One Laptop Per Child program. That laptop produced for children in the third world has no moving parts in it whatsoever. That means everything is on a chip of some sort. It doesn't matter if it's NOR flash or NAND flash. It's technically feasible and has been done already. The target price for those systems is something like US$50 to US$100.

If the cost can be kept affordable for a charity supplying the third world then I'm pretty sure the average westerner can scrape up the cash.

Now if you've recently bought a USB pen drive for $100 that's only 128MB in size then I'd go demand my money back. Here in the UK we count our flash memory in GB. A 2GB pen drive cost me £30. That's about US$15. I think it would be even cheaper in Canada or Australia.
gmat
09/11/07		 .
phubert
09/11/07		 Wow, you're still around, gmat! Good to see you! Have you voted for this one? http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/73803
mistern
09/11/07		 Wrong way round. £30 equals about US$ 60.
gmat
09/11/07		 .
aikiwolfie
09/11/07		 @phubert. It would be if we were talking about cold hard cash. But we're not. We're comparing the price of two products. Here in the UK we pay roughly twice as much for things as people do in the US. So a £30 USB drive here in the UK would be roughly $15 in the US.
phubert
09/11/07		 aikiwolfie, you shouldn't respond to something I wrote SO LONG AGO!!! :-D

But, we're talking -options- here, not default configuration... right?

Still, I'm not quite sure what you are addressing (should quote me... would help my ADD brain cells! :-) )
gmat
09/11/07		 .
phubert
09/11/07		 yes, at first I was going to ask if he intended to address me, then I went hunting for any entries I might have in the thread... I'm afraid I'd forgotten this thread even EXISTED!
aikiwolfie
09/11/07		 Sorry my mistake should have been @ mistern. Anyway it's off topic, a mute point and I'm probably wrong or the Americans are being seriously shafted for their USB keys. Kingston DataTraveler II Plus - Migo Edition - USB flash drive - 4 GB - Hi-Speed USB = £53.79 or $85!!!
gmat
09/11/07		 .
jervis961
09/11/07		 @gmat check this one out faster speed and cheaper.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220156

Patriot Extreme Performance 4GB Flash Drive (USB2.0 Portable) Model PEF4G200USB - Retail
Features: Easy plug and play functionality Durable water and shock resistant housing Driverless in Windows ME/2K/XP, Mac OS 9.x, OS X, Linux with USB storage support Includes cap holder and chain to prevent lost caps
Labor: 1 year limited
Parts: 1 year limited
Speed: 200X (32MB/sec read speed, 26MB/sec write speed)
gmat
09/11/07		 .
aikiwolfie
09/11/07		 LOL looks like Dell need to be explaining why their price for the same product is almost a whole $15 more. Surely the profit margins aren't that tight.
jervis961
09/11/07		 @gmat- my bad. I do like the specs on the one I found though.
gmat
09/11/07		 .
amp_man
09/11/07		 I was trying to say I spent $100 on a 128mb USB drive back when that was a reasonable price for it. I think it was around 2000, but I can't remember exactly.

I know about the OLPC project. If you check out the system specs, you'll see it has a 1024KB (NOR) flash on SPI, which is for the system BIOS, then 1GB of NAND flash for the OS and storage. The actual BIOS is Open Firmware, although it used to be LinuxBIOS booting a stripped down OpenBIOS. You can also see a PLCC32 socket on the board, for a second BIOS chip that's used during BIOS development.

Also, the systems currently cost $150 just to build (ie the developers aren't making anything on this). The OLPC guys have been working with manufacturers to try to bring down the cost, but that's as far as it's come so far.
aikiwolfie
09/11/07		 Dude let it go. What the OP asked for is entirely possible and has been done. Even if we stick with current PC architecture all the OP has to do is hop onto the Gentoo web site and order their Gentoo distro on a flash stick then set the BIOS to use USB as the first boot device. Most PCs these days can handle that.

I'm done with this one. Have fun kiddie winkles.
bogdano2
10/12/07		 By the way, this idea has just been implemented by ASUS.

Have a look at http://www.splashtop.com/index.php
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