Promote gives points; Demote takes them away.

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Promote gives points; Demote takes them away.

160 points posted to IdeaStorm by badblood 05/16/07 **PARTIALLY IMPLEMENTED**

Votes make the points for ideas go up and down, but positive or negative votes make a users points always go up. For user points positive vote makes the points go up and negative vote make the points go down. That should equalize things.....

User points no longer go up when people demote their ideas. The reason it's only partially implemented is that we do not have demotes taking users' points away - there's still a debate on whether or not to do that.

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benjesuit 05/16/07	I had suggested this idea and would you believe a fair amount of posters demoted http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/65348/Another_IdeaStorm_bug< had a good laugh at the support of illogic.
thebittersea 05/16/07	I was motivated by points but I'm not anymore. Quality of your idea is more important, a byproduct of a good idea is points.
jervis961 05/16/07	I think a reputation system would work better. Go look at the one on http://forum.notebookreview.com/ No longer give the user points for ideas. If you vote it only counts towards the idea. Rep can only go up but you need lots of people to boost it before getting a high rep.
benjesuit 05/16/07	@bittersea Right. So... you demoted this idea yet again because...?
thebittersea 05/16/07	I demoted because I want to eliminate this point system.
benjesuit 05/16/07	@ Jervis Yeah, that'd work. Or simply, and I say this for the point conscious, you only get points for promote. Demote, as you say, only reduces the point value of the idea and not the originator of the idea's points.
jervis961 05/16/07	That would work too. But either way it should be marked next to your name in comments and ideas so people know if you are full of it or not.
badblood 05/16/07	if there are no points, people would probably start comparing the number of articles or the number of votes or the number of comments. They are all interesting statistics. Maybe better just to have two numbers - how many voted up your ideas and how voted them down. It gives you a general indicator of how well you are doing, if not a competitive ranking system.
akidan 05/16/07	I think knowing what people DON'T want is just as important as knowing what people want. By punishing people for demoting, IdeaStorm would no longer fairly represent what ideas people think are bad.
badblood 05/16/07	akidan I totally agree with you.
benjesuit 05/16/07	Nah. This site is biased by virtue of the fact that most on here are Linux fans. You'd think everyone in the computing public wanted Linux and MSFT should go the way of the Dodo. I doubt there is even one pro-microsoft post that has a positive ranking. Yet in the real world, MSFT dominates the desktop/notebook market. And yeah, people actually want it. Even with the knowledge of MACs. Anyway, it's basic math. The site has it half right. Demoted ideas can go negative. Bravo. Let's keep that. Now, for those who come up with a bad idea(s) let's reduce their points accordingly. Except, they don't go negative. They just stop at zero. Just like when they first signed up. It will reduce the attention whores somewhat who are interested in playing the point game as some sort of validation which they crave.
akidan 05/16/07	I do worry about this site not representing the full spectrum of Dell customers, and having a pro-Linux bias (myself as a Linux user included). Maybe we need some ideas about how to bring more points of view to IdeaStorm.
dell_admin1 05/16/07	Good discussion here.
dell_admin1 05/16/07	Changed status to ACKNOWLEDGED.
reg 05/17/07	Get rid of the whole points / productivity thing - it is a waste of time.
mistern 05/17/07	Getting rid of Demote would be a good step, making it take away points probably not.
gmat 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	LOL, gmat strikes again.
phubert 05/17/07	@dell_admin1 - so I see how you implemented my suggestion! :-D VERY GOOD!! And, THANKS!
phubert 05/17/07	As to participation, however, I am one of the moderators at a site where the _registered_ membership outnumbers active participants by nerarly 100 to 1 and where anonymous accesses outnumber logins by at least 2-1, if not higher. Participation is ALWAYS a problem. And, those who are satisfied tend NOT to participate at the same level as those who are not. Those with VISION certainly tend to be more active participants. And, I'll wager each of us can testify that in any areas where we are happy with status-quo or where we have no particular vision for change or improvement... or about which we have no CURIOSITY, our own 'participation' is nil. Right? The site I referred-to has significant anonymous international accesses and I've 'invited' said -regulars- (by their IP addresses) to register (after all, one can really register anonymously .. no mail address is required) and participate openly. For the most part that simply hasn't happened, though the invitation IS being READ. So, consider the general problem of 'participation' when you lament over who is and who isn't involved here. I see the same problem in the organization I work for. Even those with complaints refuse to voice them anywhere where it might make a difference...
phubert 05/17/07	And, ONE comparison between the Windows and the Linux people. In the Windows world, MICROSOFT declares the VISION and direction. Proprietary, closed? In the Linux-F/LOSS world, individuals are constantly raising the vision and setting the direction. Free, Open. The latter paradigm encourages and invites participation as well as those who are more likely TO participate. So, it really isn't so much about Linux being 'a religion' as OPENNESS providing the FOUNDATION for broad-based collaboration and participation. Open is always better. Think a broad field of wildflowers on a sunny (or even storming) day versus your CUBICLE nowhere near a window. Most of us would rather have the wind in our face, I suspect.
phubert 05/17/07	I do agree with thebittersea regarding points... I believe I have made a number of sensible, practical suggestions (tho, not necessarily workable for Dell... THEY have to judge that) that clearly haven't been especially _popular_. But, then, I've never been widely popular, either! (Liked, perhaps, but not 'popular') The points only tell me someone is SEEING what I've posted. And, it's nice to know they're at least READ now & then. We really can't expect others to always see things the way we do. :-D And I'm VERY used to THAT! :lol:
phubert 05/17/07	Oh, in case anyone raises the spectre of 'fragmentation' in the F/LOSS world, indeed, this is possible. It WON'T harm users of the most critical products for several reasons. The pressures toward open standards and interoperability are far better responded-to in the F/LOSS world. There is little pressure THERE to _create_ divergent _standards_. Closed, proprietary companies have such incentive to keep customers on their platforms for a pure profit motive. No such incentive or _perspective_ exists in the F/LOSS world. Divergence, when it leads to innovation (as it so often does) is a GOOD thing. Poor ideas tend to fade away, better ones rise, but no one is restricted BY THE ENVIRONMENT from pursuing new and different. Licensing worries do not exist if you remain open yourself.
jervis961 05/17/07	phubert, are you working on a book? I enjoy reading your views and agree with most of them. I'm a slave to MS still, but I like to rattle the chains once in a while.
phubert 05/17/07	a book???? Pretty wordy, then, huh? (have maybe a thousand POEMS (haven't counted 'em since mid-80's), tho, scattered all around... most unlikely to ever be published...) ...far too disorganized (ADD??) to write a book! :-( (and it sounds horribly egoistic to even THINK of it)
jervis961 05/17/07	Not too wordy, just well thought out.
phubert 05/17/07	btw - jervis961, where you DON'T agree or have a different perspective, I'd love to hear it. I know you're not shy about participating! But, it's when someone calls us on a subject or raises exceptions and alternatives that we LEARN... more of that 'chock full of goodness' (as a co-worker likes to say) openness...
mistern 05/17/07	"@mistern - Slightly ironic comment considering how you voted. What would you have commented if there were no Demote button? : )" - gmat Then, I'd have asked "What's demote?"
phubert 05/17/07	Hey, the entire subject of DEMOTE has provoked considerable discussion! And, it's offered many the opportunity to express displeasure or regret an UNINTENDED vote!!! :lol: Right now, it's giving ME the opportunity to chuckle. Laughs are good for the soul (and the body).
jervis961 05/17/07	@phubert - I just have some reservations about the whole Linux/open source thing (MS brainwashing is killer). I'm trying to get more into it but 35 years of programming is hard to clean up.
gmat 05/17/07
phubert 05/17/07	Naturally. (unless, of course, I simply get bored! :-) )
gmat 05/17/07
gmat 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	Very interesting point, gmat. I've tried to be more inviting, but still slip up once in a while.
phubert 05/17/07	No defenses raised, gmat. How could they be? Certainly, I'm no part of any 'inner circle' ... just an independent, here & there participant. Yes, I hadn't overlooked that 'disincentive' to participation. 'Flaming' is another problem. Indeed, newcomers need some courage, audacity, perseverance. Isn't that something we learn over time? I started out so shy I couldn't speak to store clerks and never spoke in classrooms. Somewhere, that changed. But, it took time. Not that wordy, gmat. I'd just say (with the song) 'pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again!' And, don't take things so PERSONALLY. Learn to laugh AT yourself and WITH others who laugh at you (I learned THAT one in the First Grade (literally)) ** Well @jervis961, I also think we should be free to simply be ourselves... which includes our warts & moods. THEN we can apologize! Still, yes, I like to be inviting... and if I kid someone I hope they understand it is good-natured. Admittedly, there are times when I get a little -annoyed- and lose patience... and also times when I'm afraid I think a short blast is appropriate... and much more rarely, when it's simply necessary to blow some persistent fool off the page (well, real fools should be ignored). I have ONE example in mind and it isn't from any chat forum!
gmat 05/17/07
gmat 05/17/07
phubert 05/17/07	Still, our brief discussion here DOES raise the point: should we raise anything to @dell_admin1 about some way of laying out a WELCOME mat? And, there have been questions elsewhere in IdeaStorm about 'getting the word out' about the site...
gmat 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	Well guys I think there are alot of problems here and we just end up finding our own way. I think dell_admin1 wants to help but is too busy to do it and probibly doesn't have all the resources readily available to her. On a side topic of personal spaces or infomation about users see my last comment on http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/66873 . I don't want to post it everywhere yet but I think we'll have to take things into out own hands on this one too.
gmat 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	I don't need to experiment to see the difference, I know exactly what you mean by my experiences at other sites. You start off as the FNG.
gmat 05/17/07
gmat 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	Oh, I know that gmat, whenever you post about it I can think of at least one instance that took place with an hour of your message. yesterday someone posted an dupe and not even trying to be rude i posted a comment that they might want to do a search before posting an idea. All in all it wasn't bad (depending how you read it, its hard to guage intent based on text) but then some of the others posted the same thing so it became a kind of beat down. Like I said, I don't try to intentionally do that kind of thing but sometimes it does happen.
badblood 05/17/07	my dear dell_admin1 what happened to the original editorial summary? Did your comment from yesterday overwrite it?
badblood 05/17/07	I think a lot of the 'frat' problem occurs when we develop collective projects that sidetrack the main purpose of the site and which are not relevant to newcomers. The preoccupation with duplicates is an example, because this isn't an issue for newbies and comes as a shock when one of the main comments of their new posts is that it is a duplicate or non idea. This is cruel and discouraging.
jervis961 05/17/07	It is also hard to tell if it is an intentional dupe or just lack of knowledge of the site by a new person.
dell_admin1 05/17/07	@badblood - uh oh - it did! This is the bug that keeps your last comment in the editorial summary the next time you go to post. I am so sorry - do you happen to remember what the content was?
badblood 05/17/07	dell_admin1 don't worry about it at all. Your comment is succinct. Though it might be a good idea to hot trot it to the bug fix dept.
phubert 05/17/07	@badblood & all - HOW long ago did I post the suggestion that we all simply ignore duplicates and other posting 'problems' and just get on with our own http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/65140<
badblood 05/17/07	Umn, a long time ago? Did the suggestion work?
phubert 05/17/07	nope... doesn't mean it wasn't worth offering, tho
phubert 05/17/07	@dell_admin1 - so, since I have seen that it's related to browser cache, does that say something about the -site's- code????? (I don't do web)
badblood 05/17/07	phubert it was/is worth offering, that's not what I meant.
dell_admin1 05/17/07	@phubert - I'm not a developer or an expert in these areas, so I'm asking the experts. :)
jervis961 05/17/07	I think it was thebittersea who posted last night that the site has a virus. Don't know if that means anything though or was just an error in his virus program.
badblood 05/17/07	"...I'm asking the experts. :)" Are you asking Dell Technical Support!? Did they put you on hold? Have they asked you to check if the machine is plugged in?
badblood 05/17/07	jervis961 I think he'd run out of ideas, but wanted to give something to play with. Good for him!
jervis961 05/17/07	I would recommend using the chat version of support less language barriers.
badblood 05/17/07	Chat is good, except when they try to be bubbly! I despise bubbly. It is so culturally specific and makes me nervous.
jervis961 05/17/07	You mean like "Is there anything else I can help you with??? if not have a super dee duper day."
gmat 05/17/07
badblood 05/17/07	Oh yeh and forget it when they tell you to use the recovery disks, that's always an easy option for them and an end game for us.
badblood 05/17/07	jervis that's exactly it. I find it difficult to talk about my technology woes with Telly-Tubbies...
jervis961 05/17/07	Hey maybe the bug is what is messing up the moderator update, here is a direct quote. NEW! Upcoming Scheduled Maintenance (posted May 14, 2007) On Saturday, May 12 from 12 p.m. – 4 p.m. (Central Standard Time), IdeaStorm was unavailable due to site maintenance, as we moved the site to a new server. If your computer has not been rebooted since the last time you accessed IdeaStorm, you may need to reboot it to view the site at its new location. As the scheduled maintenance is completed, we hope you’ll get back to the business of generating creative ideas on IdeaStorm!
gmat 05/17/07
badblood 05/17/07	It's the tech guys creating jobs for themselves....they were asked to fix one problem and created another to ensure more work. They create a cycle of mutual dependency. They attempt to dazzle non tech people with tech-language (or bore them). Beware dell_admin1 I think you are being scammed!
jervis961 05/17/07	LOL, I feel bad for her most days, having to put up with us.
phubert 05/17/07	"phubert it was/is worth offering, that's not what I meant." No, @badblood, I didn't take it that way, either... just a comment...
phubert 05/17/07	Well dell_admin1 must be a trooper... she seems to handle it very well... and, after all, we DO express OUR appreciation for all her efforts!
jervis961 05/17/07	Luckily she knows we are just kidding around.
badblood 05/17/07	I think dell_admin1 is still on hold.............
jervis961 05/17/07	I hope they have good music.
mistern 05/17/07	"And to mistern. I sympathize with you and feel your pain. But you can't demote an idea more than once." - gmat No pain. I just don't like Demote.
benjesuit 05/17/07	@Gmat, that 8:35 post up there is very insightful. Props. And it's totally frat up in this motherlover, yo. Mugs just have to get with da haze or peace out. Know what I'm saying? No? Anyway, let's face it. Best ideas are the most thought out ones. And they're the ones most likely to be implemented down the road. (or already have been). Dell is a business after all. And what makes sense, especially business sense is what they're going to be interested in. Noobs asking for frilly frivolous things can't expect to be respected by the forum or by Dell. That's just plain unnatural. It's a discussion board. Honestly, if they don't know how to communicate their ideas or can't realize either how frivolous or unfeasable their idea is, then they have some growing to do. We were all at the stage at one time in life. Learned from it and hopefully did progressively better each subsequent time at bat. And at the same time, there were some ideas that came from individuals who obviously know little about how computers work. And guess what? Those ideas are brilliant, feasable, and quite practical in terms of implementation. Because they are consumers who know how to properly express their needs and desires. What good is someone on an idea forum who can't properly express their idea? And it doesn't take all that much to properly express an idea. If someone wants a Ferrari red laptop and submits it as an idea saying just that, what fear do they have concerning intimidation? Sure some might not agree as it is a matter of taste. And some will demote it. If a noob can't handle their idea being demoted or challenged, well, screw 'em. Really. It's not the issue of the forum members. Nor is the forum obligated to coodle the skittish. Just as it's not an audience's responsiblilty to soothe the psyche of one who is afraid of public speaking. Or build low building because some might be afraid of heights. Or kill all spiders because some have arachnophobia. Lastly, particiaption is down because frankly, most of the best ideas have been posted already. Some of which have been or are going to be implemented.
jervis961 05/17/07	Good counterpoint benjesuit.
phubert 05/17/07	but, benjesuit, are you using Firefox? spellcheck? ONE thing I have against FF spellcheck, though, is that it has no autocorrect... :(
mistern 05/17/07	Demote is not bad for psychological reasons but because it just-doesn't-work. At least not as implemented here. Unfortunately I can't explain that with a lengthy essay. :-D
jervis961 05/17/07	I used to double or triple space my high school papers to make it look longer than it really was. =)
jmxz 05/17/07	benjesuit: Nah. This site is biased by virtue of the fact that most on here are Linux fans. I think it's easier to explain that Windows users are already satisfied by Dell and have no complaints. The fact that Dell is not satisfying Linux customers is what's attracting Dell's Linux users to IdeaStorm. You'd think everyone in the computing public wanted Linux and MSFT should go the way of the Dodo. I doubt there is even one pro-microsoft post that has a positive ranking. No, I read it as Dell already gives Windows users everything they want (except XP across more Dell systems and cleaner Windows installs, and yes, those Windows requests do get positive votes).
benjesuit 05/17/07	@phubert Not using firefox today. But lazily using iespell 2.5.1 in IE7.
benjesuit 05/17/07	@jmxz on first reply; That's one plausible way to look at it. But let's face it. Linux posts outnumber MS post at least 15:1. And that's just an off the cuff guess. And it's not that MS users are satisfied. They just happen to know you don't complain to DELL for an MS problem. So they mostly resort to hardware feature requests. On second reply; Well I don't know about that. Maybe. But then again you probably wouldn't have feature requests. MS users, not to give them all that much credit, are smart enough to know you don't complain to Dell for things that MS must address. And as for the "bring back XP" post, it's, well, anti-microsoft in its own obtuse way. But it's perhaps the only positively voted MS related post. However it may be spun, the predominate participants on this site are Linux users. Just tally both the votes for Linux ideas and the number of Linux/open source related ideas. And there we have our bias. I might be one of the few who openly support both Linux and MS. So I have no material bias between the two. To me, they each have their strengths and weaknesses.
jervis961 05/17/07	I am a MS user and complain plenty. I just don't post the same idea over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over. I think you get the idea :-) Anyway I think Linux is a good thing, but I'm not comfortable enough yet to make the switch. Maybe its that I'm brainwashed or just that Vista is doing fine by me, just took some getting used to.
benjesuit 05/17/07	@Jervis I like Vista and MS too. No real need to make a switch to Linux. But if you have the time or a not too old computer laying around, (say 5 or 6 years old or earlier) d/l ubuntu and give it a try for a while if you haven't already. It's not going to knock your socks off or anything. Especially if you, like me, haven't had any/many problems with MS OS. But I think you'll like it if you already haven't played with it. And as for open office, MS office is superior to it if and only if you're an advanced user. If not, then Open Office is plenty sufficient. BTW, you missed an "over." I hate to be all OCD about it. But really man. You did. :)~
gmat 05/17/07
badblood 05/17/07
jervis961 05/17/07	oh well.
benjesuit 05/17/07	It's not hostile. It's being realistic. You noticed the plight of generally timid if not spineless noobs and generalized it. And I commented in context and am therefore right on que. Anyway, fact of life is you can't please and accomodate everyone. That's one of the reasons why humans developed protocols for communication. If someone can't "articulate" an idea properly, it's useless. Meaningless. Plain and simple. Always has been. Always will be. Now there are many ways to articulate an idea, thought, emotion, etc. So long as it comprehensible to another party. And yes, one can feel their way through an idea. There's no barrier to that except their own insecurities which cannot be helped except by the one with the insecurity. Neither is it the responsibility of another to help another articulate an idea. Naturally, since we're not telepathic. So, it has nothing to do with being charitible or "christian." It's simply a matter of effective communication. The onus for it belongs squarely with the one attempting to communicate effectively. Not the audience. I mean, geez man, they attempt from day to teach us how to communicate effectively. Imagine going to a comedy club where you had to "help" and be charitable to the comedian who is feeling his way through a joke? Sure, it could be fun. But mostly for gregarious hecklers. Lastly, and this might make you smile, don't be fooled by my last name. Sometimes I wish I were female and it was my maiden name so I could marry and change it. I have nothing much against Catholicism, but it just ain't my cup of tea. The history of my surname is both interesting and boring. Depends on one's point of view.
gmat 05/17/07
gmat 05/17/07
gmat 05/17/07
badblood 05/17/07	BEER! WHERE?
gmat 05/17/07
badblood 05/17/07	oh no keep chatting. It all belongs to Dell anyhoo.
jervis961 05/17/07	MOM, GMAT AND BENJESUIT ARE FIGHTING AGAIN!!! Guys, just agree to disagree on this one so we can move on to a lighter subject. How do you feel about abortion?? I was going to say euthinasia but figured gmat would take it as a threat, =)
gmat 05/17/07
dell_admin1 05/17/07	A Dell IdeaStorm community member has posted a hidden script on this page which redirects the reader's browser away from ideastorm.com. In order to maintain the integrity of the IdeaStorm site, we ask that the poster of this script remove it immediately. Dell takes security very seriously and continued use of this type of script could result in removal of functionality for all IdeaStorm community members.
akidan 05/17/07	cough-reg-cough

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