Don't imply Microsoft IP in Linux

How IdeaStorm Works:

Linux Comments | Linux Ideas | Operating Systems Comments | Operating Systems Ideas

2450

Don't imply Microsoft IP in Linux

2450 points posted to Linux, Operating Systems by mhall119 05/07/07

Many Open Source and Linux users are troubled by Microsoft's recent deal with Novell where Novell seems to imply that their Suse Linux contains Microsoft intellecual property. Now Dell has also entered that agreement, and will be selling licenses of MS Windows with customers purchase Suse Linux.

I understand the need for compatibility between Microsoft products and Linux, but I, and many others, don't see how this agreement is improving that in any way.

I would like Dell to make an official statement that they do not believe there is any Microsoft intellectual property in any of the distributions of Linux they offer. I would also like to see Microsoft pressed to increase compatibility by opening their protocols for NetBIOS and Exchange, as well as the NTFS filesystem, to allow open source implementations.

mhall119 05/07/07	To those demoting this article, please post your reasons. If you have a complaint about some specific statement, I would like to know.
ajc 05/07/07	Not only am I fully behind this assertion, but I feel it is incredibly important. With these actions, Microsoft is setting up a "protection racket" around Linux. This is illegal. If Microsoft feels that its proprietary technology is being used without permission within Linux, then Microsoft should come forward with the details.
dino 05/07/07	I don't think Dell should need to make any offical statement on something that is between Lunix and Microsoft. It's like making the vending machine provider make a statement about the recipe in the coke they sell in their machine.
mhall119 05/07/07	Dino, This isn't about them selling Linux, as in your vending machine analogy, this is about them entering into an agreement that at least seems to imply IP infringement in the versions of Linux they are selling. It is also asking them to push Microsoft on the "compatibility" issue that seems to be central to the agreement.
xvalentinex 05/07/07	Why not RedHat? The venom out there by Linux Admins for Novell/Microsoft is pretty bad. I don't understand why Dell would set their new Linux offerings up to fail, by enticing a mass boycott. Especially when there are so many better options out there. I know I was planning to buy a preloaded desktop to show my support even though gentoo is my preferred flavor. I probably still will just because I want to see the preloaded Linux succeed. However you can rest assured that my companies server racks will never house a Dell server as long as they have SuSE preloaded.
hugoahlquist 05/07/07	I'm not a happy camper about this turn of events. It's like Dell going to the "Dark Side" along with Novell. I was planning on getting an Ubuntu consumer desktop as soon as they became available. It's looking like that may not happen. :(
pkarlos_76 05/07/07	I am firmly againt any implied IP with this deal and ask Micheal Dell to rescind this deal with Microsoft
phubert 05/07/07	absolutely!
jeevesbond 05/07/07	Behind this 110% signing a patent protection pact is re-inforcing Microsoft' deluded view that there is it's 'Intellectual Property' in Linux. Dell's last move has not helped Linux, it's been a step backward.
mhall119 05/07/07	pkarlos_76, The deal itself, as I read it, isn't so bad. However Microsoft's spin has been that it is an admittance of their IP in Linux, something Novell has denied. I just want Dell to publicly deny it as well, so that no reporters will be tempted into writing about how Dell is selling Microsoft licensed Linux. I also want to see Dell push for the actual content of the deal, which is increased interoperability between Linux and Windows, which can only come when Microsoft adopts open standards, or opens their network protocols, file formats and filesystem for an open-source implementation.
oblomov 05/07/07	About the vending machine metaphor: the deal is like paying Coca Cola royalties for every Pepsi Cola sold, because Coca Cola threatens to sue every Pepsi Cola reseller and drinker because of an alleged (and never specified or revealed) receipe copyright infringment. It's riciulous and stupid of the resellers to fall for it.
rsmiller 05/07/07	I think it is ridiculous for Dell to make any comment on the agreement between Novell and Microsoft. Maybe Dell should also clarify its position on the "grassy knoll" and the roswell cover up... The agreement between Microsoft and Novell includes patent coverage both ways. This would be a necessity as Microsoft and Novell work continue to tighten the relationships between SUSE Linux and the windows platform. Its beneficial to both companies and their customers. Dell is in a great position to partner with both Novell and Microsoft and can now guarantee its customers that they will have the full support of Novell and Microsoft as they integrate Windows and SUSE products on Dell hardware.
todd1814 05/07/07	Slap in the face! Customers asked for Linux because they're tired of supporting Microsoft and its aggressive, monopolistic practices. While the news of Dell selling Ubuntu desktops is well received, partnering with MS for Linux servers has spoiled that offering. Customers thought the Linux Desktop was a response to them and their desire to have an open source OS, free of exploitation (and fees) by MS. Now it appears that Dell wasn't listening to customers but was trying to fool them in order to increase sales. I believe this decision will hurt Linux Desktop sales primarily because customers who asked for it are strong in their principles. They will reject Dell Linux desktops because of this server decision. I promise you that you've already lost all business with me and the servers I support.
mrlinux11 05/07/07	@ xvalentinex "I don't understand why Dell would set their new Linux offerings up to fail", You are assuming they truly want to sell Linux, I think it is just marketing hype, and when they post the 1 or 2 boxes (if you can find them ) on dell.com to sell they will leave them out there a couple of months, and when they sell hardly any, they will Claim no one wants Linux. You can see they are currently doing the same thing right now with their open source models, they are not trying to sell them. Here is a list of all of the E521 Models by going to this link, however the open source version is missing ????? http://www.dell.com/content/products/features.aspx/cto_dimene521?c=us&cs=19&l...< is the open source models Dimension n Series E521 http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/e510_nseries?c=us&cs=19&l=en...~
jez 05/07/07	This is an incredible disappointment. Linux owes absolutely nothing to Microsoft.
pogson 05/07/07	Dell could distribute SLES without going through Microsoft. This stinks of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish: the Microsoft way". I was thinking of buying a Dell laptop this year to celebrate their opening to Linux but this deal really turns me off Dell.
lordshipmayhem 05/07/07	Until Microsoft proves what exactly of their IP is actually IN Linux, they should not be given one thin dime. Even in Canadian funds. Please rescind this agreement ASAP.
mhall119 05/07/07	@rsmiller: That would be the case if Dell had no involvement in the Microsoft/Novell deal. However, recent news says they Dell has entered into that agreement, making it perfectly appropriate to ask about their official standing on the issues it raises.
grahamgra 05/07/07	Microsoft is simply using bullying tactics to get what they want, nothing is new here. It should be obvious to everybody that Linux doesn't have problems with Microsoft's copyright. If it does, then by all means prove me wrong, but do it with some actual evidence rather than constant whining and calls to the lawyer.
jmxz 05/07/07	@ xvalentinex "I don't understand why Dell would set their new Linux offerings up to fail" Because Microsoft pays them to. Dell embraced Linux fully before (shipping and supporting it on desktops and laptops - and Michael Dell giving the keynote at LinuxWorld and announcing that Dell can help get component manufacturers to help with Linux drivers). Two years later "Microsoft Killed Dell Linux" to quote the media reports. http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66081< time looks no different except that Microsoft is doing it through Novell (to whom they paid a half billion dollars for this opportunity).
rkhalloran 05/07/07	Novell supposedly signed the deal with MS to promote interoperability; within the week Ballmer was claiming it proved Linux infringed Microsoft's IP and other Linux vendors needed to get in line. Novell said that wasn't the deal they signed. After hearing of the deal I promptly scrubbed the SuSE Linux off my home boxes and replaced it with Ubuntu; Novell has simply provided ammo for the FUDmeister in Redmond. If there ARE IP issues with Linux, let Microsoft actually SAY what they are; if they aren't, Ballmer should Just Shut Up. Dell is to be applauded for their announcement of supporting Ubuntu as a client OS, but this deal to offer a Linux version for the server that's seen by the market as 'tainted' leaves something...
pkarlos_76 05/07/07	I too only use ubuntu linux now
willrj 05/07/07	I am concerned that this Novell/Microsoft alliance is going to cause major FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) in the business and home-user world, which will impact on all distros other than Suse. Please make it clear that Microsoft has yet to demonstrate they have IP of a single section of Linux. Do not contribute to Microsoft's attempts to shut down Linux.
jwelling 05/07/07	I personaly use Debian Linux, but I know my mother wants to make the switch from Windows because she is tired of it. She is asking me what she should do. I don't support Novell because of said agreement. If I can't get her a new laptop with Ubuntu from Dell maybe I should take my business to System76.com. But if I can, I'd rather get her a Dell, with Ubuntu. I'm not saying Dell shouldn't have anything to do with Microsoft. I'm just saying that you won't offend people choosing Ubuntu where you will most definatly offend the people who are going to market Linux on Dells for you. Don't loose the trusted word of mouth advertising (and sales), stick with Ubuntu.
jmarsden 05/07/07	I was considering buying a new Dell/Ubuntu laptop for my son as he heads off to grad school in a few months. Dell's action in becoming a part of this deal, and so (effectively) suggesting that Linux in some way infringes up Microsoft copyrights or patents means I'll need to reconsider. This is a really bad idea for Dell if they hope to gain market share by being a major supplier of systems with Linux pre-installed.
jmxz 05/07/07	jmarsden: I'm in a similar boat. I've been a long time Unix users and I was about to buy an Apple; but stopped in favor of Dell's positive sounding Linux ideas. If it turns out they're doing this to betray Linux with Novell and Microsoft rather than support it I'm much less excited about such products.
juggernaut 05/07/07	I get the idea that someone at Dell doesn't understand what's going on. Microsoft's Steve Ballmer has made claims that Linux infringes on Microsoft's IP, claims that appear to be legally untenable, and pure fabrications (note that Microsoft is not willing to give details). By signing on to hand out Linux Certificates Dell Inc. is backing this statement, whether through misunderstanding the situation, or for reasons that the company does not want to make public (such as Microsoft offering a beneficial contract to Dell?) If Dell was to install OPENSUSE, that would be fine - however supporting a convicted monopolist who is still in legal jeopardy both in the USA and the EU is a bad choice, and will impact negatively on Dell's corporate image. Wayne
mgiuca 05/08/07	This is just ridiculous. A week ago Dell were set to preinstall Ubuntu. Now they've got Suse with the blessing of Microsoft. The whole point of preloading Linux was so we didn't need to have Microsoft's blessing. By doing this, Dell has lost the support of all the Linux people - basically the people who were about to go and buy Dell/Ubuntu laptops. Surely this venture will now fail, giving the naysayers yet another reason to say, "see: nobody wants Linux".
mhall119 05/08/07	@mgiuca: Dell is still going to offer Ubuntu Linux for their desktop systems. This agreement only effects the Dell servers that were already being offered with Suse Enterprise preinstalled. In effect, there is no change to the software Dell offers now or in the future. I'm just concerned that Dell will unwittingly be sending the wrong message unless they openly state that they do not believe Linux contains Microsoft IP.
rtlm 05/08/07	I was incredibly excited about Dell's support for Linux. . . Now I don't know what to do. I want to reward Dell by recommending them to everyone for supporting Linux, but now I may have to boycott Dell based off of this deal. This will be one I'll have to think about for a while. Shame on you, Dell!
insulanus 05/08/07	Please consider the long term implications. More interoperability between Windows and Linux is welcome and wanted. However, the Linux community is not as naive as Daniel Lyons would have the readers of Forbes believe. The deal is a sophisticated way to gather leverage against potential targets that Microsoft lawyers may want to sue for patent infringement in the future, while paying lip service to increased interoperability with Linux. Reading the underlying machinations, it is clear that the deal with Novell is a tool for control over PC vendors. Not Novell, and not Linux customers. Over you, Dell. Dell, you have everything to gain, and little to lose by doing it right this time. I can understand the reluctance to enter into litigation, or underhanded retribution, but look at the long term benefis. Linux is never going away. Ensure that your reputation does not, either. Times are changing. Microsoft can not use the same attacks it could in the past. Yes, there will be a period of pain if you don't roll over and do what Redmond wants you to, but you can come out stronger in the end. If you're not ready to listen to your customers, shelve this plan and try again later, when you have the ability to make it happen.
ahinds 05/08/07	This is a sad development. Microsoft will not ever specify what IP of theirs is infringed by Linux. I don't believe there is any. Microsoft prefers to impose a fear tax. Don't pay it!
jeevesbond 05/08/07	@ Oblomov (and anyone else who's looking for a good drinks analogy): People keep forgetting that this isn't copyright but patent law we're dealing with. So a better analogy is: The deal is like paying Coke royalties for every Pepsi sold, as Coke threatens to sue every Pepsi reseller and drinker because of an alleged patent on the idea of Coke. They have patented the idea of a Coke like drink. Or another good one could be: Paying Microsoft for GNU/Linux is like paying Tetley tea for buying Nescafe coffee. Tetley tea says that Nescafe uses their intellectual property and that Tetley wants to: 'get the appropriate economic return for our shareholders from our innovation.' I suspect the patent(s) in question will cover a method and process for creating multiple hot drinks with caffeine as one of the ingredients. Note: it's 'multiple' because the USPTO seems to like that in a patent; makes it more specific you see.
tpischke 05/08/07	While I agree that Dell's implicit acknowledgment of Microsoft's IP claims will prove harmful to linux in the long term, I see this as a completely separate issue to their offering pre-installed Ubuntu desktops. What's important to me is that MY dollars go where I want. Thus Dell now needs to do some work to convince me that my purchase of an Ubuntu desktop in no way contributes to another 5-10 years of Microsoft desktop monopoly. It's none of my business if someone wants to pay extra for an MS/Novell server, but if any portion of my purchase of an Ubuntu laptop goes toward supporting Windows, that's another matter.
jmxz 05/08/07	@juggernaut "I get the idea that someone at Dell doesn't understand what's going on" I think those at Dell - as well as those at Microsoft understand exactly what's going on. I just wonder how much Microsoft paid Dell (in co-marketing funds or Vista discounts) to play along with this Novell quagmire.
develvellsoft 05/08/07	@mhall119 says " I'm just concerned that Dell will unwittingly be sending the wrong message unless they openly state that they do not believe Linux contains Microsoft IP." A similar statement has been announced by Novell... The only thing that makes a difference is to terminate the agreement now.
mhall119 05/08/07	@develvellsoft: I just want Dell to make the same statement that Novell made, then press Microsoft to actually implement some of the "compatibility" that was the goal of this agreement.
ajc 05/09/07	It is my sincere hope that a meteor lands on Redmond. Microsoft are the lowest form of life on the planet.
lordshipmayhem 05/10/07	Oh, come on ajc: there are some perfectly ... er ... adequate ... programmers working in Redmond. I'm sure that when Microsoft loses its monopoly and implodes they can get a job inputting data into a computer somewhere, like say at the counter of the local McDonalds.
phubert 05/10/07	Again, this is one of those things that provides a 'comfort factor' to certain decision-makers... but this point _should_ be voted-up!
yahurd 05/11/07	": there are some perfectly ... er ... adequate ... programmers working in Redmond" that is the stupidest thing ive ever heard, microsofts employment tactics and the general competance of microsoft employees are far above, far above average.
lordshipmayhem 05/11/07	That explains why the symbol for powering down has in Vista magically become the symbol for Standby Mode.
jmxz 05/11/07	yahurd: "microsofts employment tactics and the general competance of microsoft employees are far above, far above average." So it's by design that they have a horribly insecure and buggy OS?
lordshipmayhem 05/11/07	"So it's by design that they have a horribly insecure and buggy OS?" Those aren't bugs. They're FEATURES!!!
yahurd 05/13/07	"So it's by design that they have a horribly insecure and buggy OS?" well, YEH, you make more money rapidly shipping an upgrade every year, and if the drm can swing it, they may be producing vista only cds and dvds, NOT a bad move to lock people in
aeoninfinitus 05/14/07	I've been contemplating switching some systems to Linux recently, the desktop and notebook at home as well as a couple of servers. I recently had to install Windows Server 2003 at work and was/am thoroughly disgusted by its bloat and the time involved just to get it to operate. Microsoft isn't exactly known for making the highest quality software--moreso for copying (poorly) successful concepts--oh, and for security nightmares. I will not be buying Vista. Period. I've shifted more and more away from Microsoft products and their business policies seem to continue becoming more and more disastrous. I have no interest in more monopolization from Microsoft, nor am I anxious to see their 'quality' or 'features' introduced into yet more products.
johnnilsson 05/27/07	Dell couldn't say that they don't think there are MS IPs in Linux. Fact is that there's a very high probability that there is. MS certainly thinks so. And I would be very surprised if this isn't the case. The question isn't whether there are MS IPs or not in Linux. The question is whether they'll hold up in court.
jmxz 05/27/07	johnnilsson: "MS certainly thinks so. " Nope. If they did think so they would have gone after the deep pocketed IP infringers (Google, IBM) long ago. What they're doing now - claiming that they know about patents but aren't suing - are a pretty clear sign that they don't have any meaningful IP because saying they know exactly the IP's not there (they mentioned an exact number of alleged patents) but neither specifying what it is nor defending it can weaken their chances of ever defending it. Estoppel and waiver are both terms the legal community have been tossing around when looking at what Microsoft's doing with their recent Patents-in-Linux marketing campaign. It's almost certainly the case that their marketing department just noticed how well SCO (who also had no valid patents infringed upon by Linux) did at spreading a cloud of doubt for many years. It looks most likely that MS thinks there's no meaningful Microsoft IP there; but finds it an effective marketing claim to pretend there might be.
lordshipmayhem 05/28/07	"Fact is that there's a very high probability that there is." The more silent Microsoft is as to exactly WHAT intellectual property of theirs is in Linux, the lower the probability that any really is in the OS. They've been making this intimation for years, as has SCOX, and we've seen precisely squat. It's an attempt at a shakedown, by a company bereft of truly innovative ideas (the BSOD is not a "feature" and vaporware has too much prior art to be patentable).
johnnilsson 05/29/07	@jmxz That was precisley my point. Ther might not be any _meaningful_ IP. Meaning patents that will actualy have any merit in court. But that doesn't change the fact that the patent exists.
capt.kirk 11/20/07	Merged Idea originally posted 05/07/07 Dell blesses Microsoft, Novell pact, still wears Red Hat " Dell blesses Microsoft, Novell pact, still wears Red Hat " http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/314604_software07.html I don't think Dell understands how unpopular Microsoft is with Linux users or how suspicious they of M$ . Signing this pact with M$ who has NO claim to Linux or Open Source is a very bad move and will no doubt drive many people to other vendors
mauricio_martins 11/20/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/07/07 I don't understand it... In my opinion, Dell just sells hardware... the software in it, RH, Ubuntu, DOS, Windows. SLES, for me are just options that makes me choose the one I want... That's the differential... People buying at dell will take the advantage of choosing what they want in their computers.
gfdcomain 11/20/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/07/07 WHAT?! Dell says it's users "like" the Microsoft-Novell manifesto?! What users would those be, the Windows users? Looks like Dell has missed the whole point. It's already trying to alienate it's potential sales to Linux users before it really gets out of the chute! Now I must rethink my Dell-Linux purchase.
shooters 11/20/07	Merged Comment originally posted 05/14/07 @DUPLICATEOF 67008
dell_admin10 11/20/07	Merged Comment originally posted 11/20/07 @capt.kirk: You missed being the original author of this idea by just an hour. As the community has suggested, this is a duplicate of http://www.dellideastorm.com/article/show/67008 and will be merged. Thanks!

Please log in to post a comment

recently demoted by:

Status

IdeaStorm Team

How IdeaStorm Works:

Categories

Status

IdeaStorm Team