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Solid State Drive as option in Notebooks

7419 points posted to Accessories (Keyboards, etc.), Laptops by tablet205 03/28/07 **IMPLEMENTED**

Definition

A solid state drive is primarily a data storage device, for use in computing applications that traditionally use a hard disk drive.

A solid state drive is based on non-volatile memory instead of the spinning platter and mechanical-magnetic head found in a conventional hard disk drive. With no moving parts, a solid state drive eliminates seek time, latency and other electro-mechanical delays and failures associated with a conventional hard disk drive.

Advantages

* Faster startup - Since no spin-up required.
* Faster read time – In some cases, twice or more than that of the fastest hard drives.
* Low read and write latency (seek) time, hundreds of times faster than a mechanical disk.
* Faster boot and application launch time - Result of the faster read and especially seek time. But only if application already resides in flash and is more dependent on read speed than other issues, eg. OS bootup that detects devices will not be significantly sped up even with faster seeks & reads.
* Lower power consumption and heat production - no mechanical parts results in less power consumption.
* No noise - Lack of mechanical parts makes the SSD completely silent.
* Better mechanical reliability - Lack of mechanical parts results in less wear and tear. High level of ability to endure extreme shock, vibration and temperatures, which apply to laptops and other mobile devices, or when transported.
* Security - allowing a very quick "wipe" of all data stored.
* Deterministic performance - unlike mechanical hard drives, performance of SSDs is constant and deterministic across the entire storage. "Seek" time is constant, and performance does not deteriorate as the media fills up (See: Fragmentation).
* Lower weight and (depending upon type) size
* Faster than conventional disks on random I/O
Check out the Idea in Action on the SSD enhancements Dell is making.




benjesuit
03/28/07
I'd be willing to pay a $250-$300 premium for one. Best bet though is to have a dual hardrive notebook. to keep costs somewhat in line and for capacity concerns.

Boot drive SSD
Aux drive HD
lindahewitt
03/28/07
Having two hard drives such as benjesuit defined is also something that I would like to see as well.

If a user is willing to pay for two SSDs that should also be an option.
lindahewitt
03/28/07
I tried to vote to promote this article but something must be wrong with this website because it will not accept my vote to promote this article.
kenjennings
03/28/07
My vote appeared to be registered.
amri64
03/28/07
Like the idea of a SSD as primary drive & networked HD. Keeping it light on the road.
operations
03/29/07
I thought for sure someone was going to complain about this idea. Like by saying something about how SSDs are too small as far as storage size goes. I'm glad to see that dated complaint isn't being discussed since it's super easy to go buy a 2.5in external HD. So anyway, great idea! Like amri64 said, "Keeping it light on the road."
delltech
04/11/07
The main problem is that flash memory does not last as long as a mechanical hard drive. Still it is probably rated for about 100,000 read/write cycles. This would probably give the drives a couple of years lifespan before needing to be replaced.
Hybrid Hard Drives will probably be used first, since they combine the best features of flash and magnetic storage.
brightideas
04/11/07
I understand write cycles cause more wear. If it is used primarily for booting then it is rarely being written, so it could be expected to outlive the rest of the computer.
ulgrid
04/20/07
Dell should wait on this option until PRAM (also known as PCM, Ovonic Unified Memory and Chalcogenide RAM [C-RAM]) is brought to production, it is promising faster read/write times then FLASH and it does not have ion gates that eventually become stuck in one state
mikiejb
04/20/07
Have any of you actually ever used a solid state hard drive? When did speed become an attribute?
johnpro
04/23/07
Go to this website for 160Gb SSD laptop hard drives. http://www.adtron.com/products/I25fb-IDEFlashDisk.html
dell_admin1
05/03/07
Changed status to **IMPLEMENTED**.
spm
05/07/07
Low cost Flash is slower than a hard drive and has limited re-write cycles, so I am not sure if this is possible at a reasonable cost at the moment.
fgilley
05/22/07
The LatD630 and LatD830 will have this feature along with Hybrid Harddrives, SSD will be offered up to 32 GB!! also look for a Flash Ram of 1gb from intel thats installed inside the system under the keyboard where the wwan card would be, if you dont use a wwan internal card, you can attach a gig of flash :)
ideastorm
06/02/07
I totally agree with this one in 2007, their is no reason to have a pc with moving part, even the HD dvd will be out of date with flash memory card getting more capacity.
drahnreb
06/05/07
Merged Idea originally posted 03/02/07
Flash Disk instead of hard disk in DELL Laptops

Replace the hard disk with a flash disk.

Or for the first time try a hybrid hard disk.
nikkittac
06/05/07
Merged Comment originally posted 03/25/07
While the hybrid could become more and more common.The current cost of the hybrid HDs would drive up the overall cost of the pc. It would be too early in the game for this.
lizardboy
06/05/07
Merged Comment originally posted 04/04/07
srry i wanted to press promote, not demote!
johnpro
06/05/07
Merged Comment originally posted 04/23/07
go to this site for a 160Gb flash laptop hard drive. http://www.adtron.com/products/I25fb-IDEFlashDisk.html
dell_workerbee
06/05/07
Merged Comment originally posted 05/01/07
Dell has announce it will do this. Cost is high though.
phubert
06/05/07
Merged Comment originally posted 05/01/07
Yes, as much talk as there's been about flash replacing the HD, it really ain't there... and isn't likely to be in the foreseeable future... HD technology simply doesn't stand still!
jaakan
Feb 2
if prices came down on solid state disk drives and the venting system on laptops was improved ( IE like a Push/Pull type and not one fan + ) you could cut down on a lot of heat that same seems to sit there. a 16GB SSD would be just fine for a lot of people and plus in my line of work the normal laptop harddrive is the first part to go up. +$50 for a 8GB , +$100 for 16Gb, +$200 for 32Gb added to the cost of a laptop I'd have no issue with. I'd even order one from dell for my current dell laptop.

using the cheap Frashdrive as your main drive is a bad Idea vs "NAND Flash". it has a good chance of breaking before even sooner a normal HD would if you used it in the same way.
jdelidc
Feb 16
check this out
http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2008/02/15/46033.aspx
ty1323
Apr 18
Merged Idea originally posted 04/14/07
Flash Memory

In order to increse boot-speed, battery life, and general use, Dell should begin incorporating hybrid or pure flash drives into their computer. No more old fashion clanky, failure-prone spinning hard drives, just better solid state drives. (Or hybrid drives.)
vfun
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/14/07
Uh, why? You can already put a USB flash drive in any dell; and boot your OS off of that if you want.
frozenflames
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/15/07
I think Apple is doing something similare.
ty1323
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/15/07
Why? So you don't have to. Most non-technical people don't know you can do that or even know how. Besides, that is only a small pen-drive or such, this is the entire HD your replacing, thereby enabling a laptop to have a better battery life and for the HD to last an immense amount of time longer.
speakeasy
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/15/07
If you have a flash drive would you still need RAM??
catalyst
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/15/07
Or even a Cpu for that matter, Think about the Ford USB model I posted on previously,
whereby the Firmware on the USB ignition key controls/Limits the cars performance.
Analogy, automobile HW to Computer I/O HW? Isn'nt a CPU just embedded firmware
and internal I/O (mostly to Mem) control anyway. Just boils down to how fast you clock it and machine cycles?
ty1323
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/15/07
Well.... techinically.... You don't really "need" RAM AFTER you install a linux distro... You could use SWAP. Which, on ANY kind of hard drive, can be used to accent (MAYBE even replace ram AFTER installed)
robertobiggio
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/16/07
dont think i can offer flash hd, intel santa rosa processor going to eat up bulk of of comp price.
ulgrid
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/20/07
Phase change ram is a new nonvolatile ram solution that has faster read/write speeds then FLASH and doesnt have ion gates that eventually become stuck in one state
ltcmurray
Apr 18
Merged Idea originally posted 02/21/07
Solid State Computer

Move from the 20th Century with a total Solid state computer solution.

Remove the hard drive and replace with an array of solid state memory.

reduces power consumption - increase battery life on notebooks
reduce heat load
reduce booting time, both start-up and program launch
eliminate one of the biggest threats to information security, the hard drive "crash"
reduces weight of the overall product also

This is the final step before we will have the 'instant on' computer.
jervis961
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 02/21/07
I've wanted a new laptop for Vista but I'm waiting for these drives and LED displays to come out.
thamlyn
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 04/23/07
I'd love to see a SSD hard drive option on notebooks!
kblobo
Apr 18
Merged Idea originally posted 02/23/07
Solid State Notebooks

I would like to see Dell come up with a notebook using a solid state hard drive. This would be a great product for those consumers (like me) who use their computer primarily for "light duties" like using the internet, or using basic business tools or consuming media (music, movies, pictures, etc.). The energy savings alone would be substantial. The lower weight, thinner/smaller dimensions, longer battery life and less noise (smaller fan requirements) also offer significant advantages. Additional storage capacity can also be gained through external drives.
rhoxs
Apr 18
Merged Idea originally posted 02/22/07
Solid State Notebook Computer

Offer a solid state notebook computer with very low power consumption. Lightweight and FAST. Minimize moving parts.

Could work in conjunction with a separate wireless media server when at home or work to run served apps and media.
nicopoon
Apr 18
Merged Idea originally posted 05/01/07
A Solid State HD option for 17-inch Notebooks

Solid state hard drives are the most important innovation to hardware you can get nowadays. They are faster, consume less, break less, and would be perfect for a high performance notebook. Currently Sony has it on their 12-inch G1, but I would buy such a drive for a performance notebook with 17 inch screen and latest SATA interface. Most of the daily tasks today are much more of an I/O workload than CPU.

If that notebook existed today, I would buy it *right now* and be willing to spend much more for the added performance, battery longevity, reliability and silent operations.

Nick
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Congratulations, Nick! Your prayers are answered! Here is your SSD (Solid State Drive):
 http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=biz&cs=555&...
Since you are willing to pay for it "right now," You can add it to your order for a mere $549. If the 32 GB capacity (the only capacity currently available) is enough for you, you will indeed have the quietest, fastest performing notebook drive available. Since none of Dell's notebooks currently have more than one HDD/SSD bay, if you need additional storage capacity, you'll have to resort to an external drive enclosure. I recommend using an eSATA ExpressCard adapter & eSATA capable external drive enclosure for optimum results.

Will you be purchasing an M1710, 9400, E1705, or M90? :-)
benjesuit
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Hopefully the new notebooks to debut in June will have dual HDs. This way boot drive could be SSD and aux HD can be whatever you want. RAID 0 of course. If raid is the way they're going to go.
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Nick, your request for SSD's on 17" notebooks got my brain firing about all the things I would like to see on the next XPS M1710. If that's a model you're considering purchasing, you might want to pop over to my post and vote on it:
 http://www.ideastorm.com/article/show/66663
I have included mentions of SSD options, as well as dual storage drive bays (as benjesuit just posted here).
nicopoon
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Hi guys,

Interesting... I will indeed wait for the next gen systems, I like Dell systems but right now the other guys have the newer laptops with the dual hard drives and onboard web cams etc. HJ: I should probably have said "very shortly". My system is turning 3 years old next month, time for a new puppy. As for the HD capacity, I've come to think that 32GB is probably OK, which allows me to add a portable external drive for music and other multimedia, + backup, so that I have a copy of the data in case of theft. I'm not a big fan of RAID0 as you increase your risk exponentially, and RAID1 reduces your storage capacity in half. A good external drive is the way to go, IMHO.

Cheers
Nick
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Good discussion, Nick! I understand your reasoning. As far as RAID 0 is concerned, I agree with you on the data loss risk with HDD's - but with SSD's having an MTBF of 2,000,000 hours (versus HDD 150,000 hours), I think the risk falls back to acceptable levels (especially if you do drive backups regularly as you already plan to do). Good luck on your replacement notebook shopping! Drop back here and post what you end up with!
nicopoon
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Right, after all if we back it up externally, RAID0 might be a good option. But, expensive I imagine, using 2 x solid state disks. In that case, wouldn't the I/O bottleneck become the SATA interface or front side bus? What's the throughput of the SS disk vs. what the SATA interface can take?
shiningarcanine
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
A SATA version would be nice.
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
The SSD's are SATA interface! SATA standard has max throughput specification of 150 MB/s, while SATA2 has 300 MB/s. These are peak transfer rates, and are higher than can be maintained. The sustained transfer rate of SSD is far higher than HDD: 60-65 MB/s vs. 15-30 MB/s. Add to that no noise, less power draw, higher MTBF, zero seek times - and you have yourself a very winning new technology. The issues with SSD's are that they have low capacities compared to HDD's, they haven't been in mass production long enough to get real-world failure rate statistics, and they have a very high cost per GB. That will all change as time goes on (though it's a question on whether or not HDD's will stay ahead in terms of lower cost & higher capacities - don't count spinning platters dead yet)!

Here's an informative site that discusses both SSD & HDD usage in test environments:
 http://zone.ni.com/devzone/cda/tut/p/id/5730
nicopoon
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
HJ: that brings up another question... if even a solid state disk maxes out at 65MB/sec, why does the world need SATA2 when SATA's 150MB/sec is more than 2x the throughput than the disk can produce? That would mean the disk would remain the bottleneck in IO intensive operations. Perhaps that's when RAID0 comes into play....
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
nicopoon, you are correct. SATA2 is a forward looking standard, when today's drives do not come close to exceeding the original specification for sustained throughput. They key word there is sustained. Peak (aka burst) data transmissions from the drive may far exceed the sustained rate. This is due to the HDD's cache memory - any data that is in the cache can go flying down the pipe at warp speed...until it's depleted, and the drive has to fetch the rest of the data request off the platters. Another aspect of the SATA2 specification is NCQ (Native Command Queing), another feature borrowed from SCSI disk systems. Google it and read up on it if you're curious, but I have it on good authority that it really doesn't come into play in single user systems (and may degrade performance if turned on).

NCQ shines in server environments, where multiple users data requests may hit a server simultaneously - NCQ goes to work reshuffling the data requests so that the data is pulled off the platter in the most logical order possible (reducing innefficiency while the hard drive armature has to sweep back and forth to gather data). For example, if data requests came in 1,2,3,4,5 - NCQ might reshuffle the requests 5,2,3,1,4 because fetching the data in this order would reduce the amount of seekig. I'm sure I'm grossly over-simplifying, so if you're interested I recommend you continue looking up info on it.

Back to the subject at hand: Burst cache rates. I think they are only about 50% faster than SSD...which you might consider to be all burst cache - so why the difference? SSD's are non-volatile RAM (aka "Flash Memory," think USB thumb drive - but bigger), so they don't lose information when they lose power. The cache RAM on your HDD (& indeed your DRAM main memory) is volatile memory, which is faster but is lost if you lose power.

I've seen published SATA HDD burst rates of 100 MB/s, which is still below SATA, but faster than the sustained SSD 60-65 MB/s transfer rates. If the planned Hybrid Drives ever make it to market (I've seen Seagate product sheets for months now), you'll see HDD's with massive amounts of fast DRAM (say 128-256 MB instead of 8-16 MB found on today's drives). This should make better use of the SATA bandwidth, assuming the drive controller is intelligent enough to guess fairly accurately what data you are going to want next, most of the time.

I wonder if we'll eventually see Hybrid SSD drives, that would combine a massive fast DRAM cache to the already fast drive? It could be that flash RAM technology will continue to get faster (as it has been), and there will be no technical advantage to such a hybrid SSD drive - or it might be that the cost & availability of SSD's improve so much that vendors will have to differentiate their performance products. Exiting times in storage ahead!
hjwasson
Apr 18
Merged Comment originally posted 05/02/07
Oops, forgot to mention your RAID 0 comment. Since SATA drives each have their own data cable back to the controller, you don't see data bottlenecks due to saturated data cables like you might have seen with the older PATA drives. I think that the standards that were ratified are just designed with plenty of room for growth (otherwise we'd have new standards every couple of years). Indeed, you're now seeing SSD drives that come far closer to the bandwidth limit than ever before!
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